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Baware if you are driving on UK plates


Bob T
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[quote user="pimpernel"]

I am a French resident but may soon be working extensively with a vehicle in the UK. While in the UK I will be staying with a family member and I can keep a vehicle at their address. The use I will be making of my vehicle excludes a hire vehicle. I could take my French registered vehicle with me but I wondered what the legal situation would be regarding using a French registered vehicle in the UK for extended periods for business. I assumed this would be illegal so it occurred to me that a UK registered vehicle would be better. It would be easier to fly to the uk and use my vehicle there than drive over every time I go.

[/quote]

The solution to your problem is quite simple.

Under Article 4 of EU Directive 83/182, a foreign resident visiting another EU member state on business is restricted to the six month rule on driving their foreign registered car there.  (I did mention this earlier in the thread but I suspect you might have missed it or misunderstood it).  However, Article 9 (Special Arrangements) allows member states to introduce more liberal arrangements than those provided for in this Directive. In particular, they may, at the request of the importer, permit temporary importation for a period longer than that referred to in Article 4.

This is the DVLA's response to a previous query over the use of foreign vehicles in the UK:

Foreign vehicles brought temporarily into the country by a person resident outside the UK for their own use, are permitted to circulate in the country for a period of 6 months in any 12 month period provided they are able to satisfy the authorities that the vehicle is licensed and registered in the country of normal residence and they are resident outside the UK. The Motor Vehicles ( International Circulation) Order 1975, as amended, provides temporary exemption for vehicles which comply with the provisions of Council Directive 83/182, from licensing and registration requirements during this period. 

Normal Residence means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calendar year. Drivers may be asked to produce proof of their place of residence to the authorities of the country the vehicle is being used in.

If at any time a vehicle being used here on foreign plates is stopped by the police, it is the responsibility of the keeper to demonstrate that s/he is eligible to use the vehicle here without registering and licensing it.

Should you require an extension of the 6 month period allowed, you must immediately contact your nearest HM Revenue and Customs Advice Centre giving a reason as to why you wish the vehicle to stay in Britain. It will depend on HM Revenue & Customs whether or not you will have to register the vehicle under the British registration and licensing system. If an extension to the 6 month period is not allowed, you will be issued with a HM Revenue & Customs status certificate (C&E386/388).  On receipt of this certificate, you should apply immediately to register and licence the vehicle at your nearest DVLA Local Office.

Clearly, the best advice is to contact HMRC and discuss the possibility of obtaining such an extension for your French registered car.

An alternative is for your family member to acquire a car and make it available for your use during your visits. They could arrange for you to be added to their insurance as an additional driver.

 

 

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[quote user="bigears"]

Hi

Ron, I have a french reg for france and I am buying a uk reg car for the uk.  My scenario ie, what I think is logical is that it should be legal to have a car registered where it is used (based) rather than to do with the tax residency of the owner. 

I wonder what the french insurance company would make of it, if they were informed the car was being driven exclusively in the uk apart from a quick trip back to france every two years.  A ron avery type neighbour in the uk might also acuse the french resident of avoiding uk road fund and get all hot and bothered about it. 

[/quote]

You may have a French car registered to your French address for use in France and you may have a UK car registered to your UK address for use in the UK. 

This is the same scenario as a UK resident who keeps a French registered car at his French holiday home. Tax residency is irrelevant - it's whether you have a 'local' residence where the vehicle can be registered to

.

 

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[quote user="bigears"]

hi

ron, just say your last post about the dvla.  What does the french equivalent of the dvla think of a french reged car that is kept in the uk for more than 12 months? Does it consider the car 'exported'?  If if was a new car, following your legal scenario it wouldn'd have to come back for a ct for 4 years (?), so its ok to use it permanently in the uk for all that time?.  I'm sorry I'm no expert, it just doesn't feel right.

[/quote]

Keeping a French registered car in the UK for more than 12 months is of no concern of the French authorities.  It's the UK authorities that forbid it under the six months ruling.

Permanent export relates to situations where the vehicle is to be taken abroad to another country and registered there.  The '12 months and it's exported' assumption by the DVLA presupposes the vehicle has not been retaxed under the rules for continuous registration/licencing for use on the UK roads.

 

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hi

SD, I was questioning if french insurance companies would like ron's scenario of permanently leaving a french reged car in the uk (except for a 2 yr ct, if required).  The fact that the uk authorities forbid it after 6 months is another issue, but very valid to our discussion.  To be fair, I think it is the uk insurance companies that are out of step.  What is the problem with a french resident (perhaps a uk national)  having a uk reged car, kept at their maison secondaire in the uk. taxed and tested which is used when they visit the uk? 

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Bigears

Setting aside the legal/taxation issues about driving foreign cars in foreign countries, etc, etc.

French insurance policies provide unlimited 'foreign' cover so from their point of view, the time a car is spent out of the country is not an issue.  France is part of mainland Europe and travel between here and neighbouring EU member states is quite often a fact of everyday life.  Everyone drives on the same side of the road and traffic regulations are fairly consistent across Europe, so there is no significant increased risk to the insurer.  Clearly the UK is the exception, but the French insurers accept the risk.

UK insurers (in the main) differ in their approach to foreign travel cover. Being a small offshore island, there is no real routine daily travel between the UK and continental Europe so the insurers essentially have a captive market and use this to a) minimise their risk by restricting foreign travel (UK drivers are generally unfamiliar with driving on the right and most have little idea of foreign traffic law), and  b) enhance their income by charging extra for the priviledge.

There is no problem with a foreign resident obtaining insurance for a (fully legal) UK registered car kept at their UK address which they use for driving in the UK.  Think about it - if you fly in to visit your Granny at Xmas and you hire a Hertz car at Stansted Airport, then you will be offered insurance for a fully legal UK registered car which is registered at a UK address (Hertz UK head office) and which is being used by you (foreign resident) for driving in the UK.

Why are we making this so complicated.......[8-)]

 

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SD

I accept what you say, but I would still think if you said to AGF 'I intend to keep my new renault at my uk address for the next four years', they might have a bit of a problem. 

Your second point suggests that a foreign resident can get uk insurance for a uk reged car.  The limited reasearch I have done on this subject suggests that the leading uk insurers will not offer such insurance to a foreign resident.  I asked admiral and they said no.  Another contributor on this or another forum is adamant that it is impossible. 

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[quote user="bigears"]

hi

SD, I was questioning if french insurance companies would like ron's scenario of permanently leaving a french reged car in the uk (except for a 2 yr ct, if required).  The fact that the uk authorities forbid it after 6 months is another issue, but very valid to our discussion.  To be fair, I think it is the uk insurance companies that are out of step.  What is the problem with a french resident (perhaps a uk national)  having a uk reged car, kept at their maison secondaire in the uk. taxed and tested which is used when they visit the uk? 

[/quote]

Although you may well feel that the UK insurance companies are 'out of step' that's their business, it's how it is and you can't change it. I really think everything has now been answered and what individuals read from the posts and what they do is up to them provided they do not break any laws.

The facts have been given, those that want to keep cars in one or more countries under whatever registration are now aware of the legal position. Ignorance is no excuse of the law and that applies to most, if not all, European countries. I see little point in this thread continuing unless anyone has any specific question relating to fact instead of fantasy.

Those that have specific issues should contact the relevant government bodies (details have been given in this thread) in the country concerned and may add the answer they receive to this thread for others to read and digest. It would seem that there are some that do not want to believe the answers given here yet they refuse to contact the relevant authorities to find the legality of their proposed solution. Without taking this action they are not really suitably qualified to continue voicing opinions in this thread which could result in effectively inciting others to commit illegal acts.

So until somebody reports back on fact I think it's best we call it a night on this one.

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I have watched this thread develop with interest and would like to add 2 things.

To all those armchair surfing legal experts: - Just because you cannot get a quote on the net does not mean that cover is not available or contrary to any laws, all anyone (meaning these hypothetical French residents wishing to insure cars in the UK) needs to do is walk in to an insurance broker and let them do the rest. Granted they are not as many around as in the past but perhaps we are all to blame for that for not supporting them.

What SD said about French insurance providing unlimited foreign cover is interesting for when I asked my 5French° broker about cover in England he did the sharp intake of breath, wagged his finger and said "trent jours maximum", not that I have a lot of faith in what he says as when we had a "robust discussion" about the Loi Chatel after me receiving my renewal notice 2 weeks after the policy expiry he had never heard of it and photocopied my print out.

It would be reassuring to know what level of cover I have while I am in the UK worrying about how many days I have spent here or there or what country I am deemed to be resident in [:)]

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[quote user="peteone"]Sorry but am I missing out on something here.

I f you live in France and have a car with UK plates,and it is insured in France, also has a French CT.

Why should you pay UK road tax, if the car is not going to go on UK roads ?[/quote]peteone you've not missed something, you've missed the whole point for God's sake, YOU CANNOT BE RESIDENT IN FRANCE AND LEGALLY CONTINUE TO DRIVE A CAR ON UK PLATES - QED - FINITO - END OF STORY - HOW MANY MORE TIMES DOES IT NEED TO BE SAID.............!!!!!!!!!!! 

[quote user="peteone"]But the reason many people dont is that it is bloody complicated,I know it is also expensive, but I am sure most people would gladdy pay if it was easy to do![/quote]Granted it might be a bit more involved than the casual system in UK but no, it isn't bl**dy complcated nor is it expensive in relative terms.

Take my own very recent personal experience, bearing in mind that my French languague skills are still at the pathetic stage:

In the space of 4 days, starting off on the phone from UK to get Franch insurance for my new car, (a 4 year old Belgian car exported to UK which I was now bringing back to France), and including a day's drive down to my house, I got my Quittas Fiscal, CT and Carte Gris at a total cost, excluding plates which I'm getting tomorrow, of €234, €54 for the CT and €180 for the Carte Gris.

If you compare those costs to a UK MOT and 12 month's road tax then exactly where does it become expensive ?

When in Rome and all that...........

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[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="Khazi"]

Not having read every post in this thread in detail, and not wishing to go off at a tangent or repeat what may have been stated elsewhere, I noticed an article in the November edition of French News (Page 61 - Number Plate Regulations).

Basically it seems that the rules have changed, and the regulations no longer stipulate that you have to have French number plates on your car.  (They quote a response from the French Ministry of Transport in regard to questions relating to Article R323-1 du code de la route).  It used to be three months before you had to re-register the vehicle.

This enquiry was as a result of a reader noticing that an increasing number of British registered vehicles were in evidence displaying French CT and Insurance stickers in the windscreen.  For what it's worth.

Chris

[/quote]

The reason it may of appeared that nobody took any notice of your post is that unfortunatly this paper has got things wrong in the past and in some cases it has been on quite serious issues that really effect people. Just go and have a look at the Health threads where this paper has been quoted is just one prime example.

Anyway, that aside I did a search on "R323-1 du code de la route" and found it on the French government website (it came up at the top on a Google search) and as I suspected I personally can't see any mention of this issue. I also think if it were correct Sunday Driver would have picked up on it as he s usually on the ball with these things.

[/quote]

This thread is going round in circles [blink]

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Je vais mettre mon grain de sel... [Www]

Art. 323-1 refers to the contrôle technique.

This might be of interest:

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F10519.xhtml

L'immatriculation d'un véhicule dans un département français ne

s'impose à un ressortissant étranger qu'à partir du moment où il y a

déclaré son domicile.

A foreign citizen is required to register a vehicle in a French departement only when he becomes a resident there.

In other words, if you elect to live in France, you must register your France-based vehicule in France.

(tin hat and flack jacket on - ducking NOW!)

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[quote user="nomoss"]

Recommended reading :-

Current issue of  "French News", page 61. It's on line too, if you don't have a copy.

Now you can argue about that.

Edited :- Sorry Khazi, I missed your post

[/quote]

Can you give us a link to the artical please. I have visited www.french-news.com poked around and did a search but cannot find it, it's probably me.

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Sorry, I didn't realise it was not on line yet. I guess it makes sense not to put it on line while the issue is still current.

Guess you'll have to buy a copy.  Can't copy copyright material here - that would be as bad as driving an illegal car.

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[quote user="nomoss"]

Sorry, I didn't realise it was not on line yet. I guess it makes sense not to put it on line while the issue is still current.

Guess you'll have to buy a copy.  Can't copy copyright material here - that would be as bad as driving an illegal car.

[/quote]

I don't think I will bother because I dont buy these sort of papers, I would rather struggle with a French one and what is quoted from the artical has been checked by two people and it's wrong (there is nothing about keeping cars on their original counties plates in Art. R323-1).

As for "Can't copy copyright material here - that would be as bad as driving an illegal car." well thats a bit of a silly thing to say.

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[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="nomoss"]

Sorry, I didn't realise it was not on line yet. I guess it makes sense not to put it on line while the issue is still current.

Guess you'll have to buy a copy.  Can't copy copyright material here - that would be as bad as driving an illegal car.

[/quote]

I don't think I will bother because I dont buy these sort of papers, .

[/quote]

But you don't mind reading them online?

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[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Quillan"][quote user="nomoss"]

Sorry, I didn't realise it was not on line yet. I guess it makes sense not to put it on line while the issue is still current.

Guess you'll have to buy a copy.  Can't copy copyright material here - that would be as bad as driving an illegal car.

[/quote]

I don't think I will bother because I dont buy these sort of papers, .

[/quote]

But you don't mind reading them online?

[/quote]

Nope don't do that either, I only went to have a look because you said it would be online. Still if you fall in to the area of living in France and having a UK reg car with French insurance and a CT and there is an accident you can always wave your copy in front of the gendarmes and say "it must be right because it says so here", bet they will be well impressed. Personally I tend to believe the French government website.

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If we accept that nomoss has correctly interpreted the French News article (which appears to overturn EU cross border taxation principles and seems to contradict current French law) and it does indeed turn out to be inaccurate (with the potentially serious consequences for anyone following that advice), do you think the editor will have to consider her position....?  [Www]

 

 

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I've posted this little snippet for those who may still doubt that insurance companies will do all they can to avoid paying out on claims.

Now you can understand a problem if you make major modifications, but tyres and even a different type of spark plug  [:@]

Read the full article HERE

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I realise that this is 11 months old now, but can you make sense of it???

-----Original Message-----
From: john.xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 12/12/2006 16:27:19
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Exported cars

I wonder if you can help me with a query please.

 

I live in the South of France permantly. We quite often see U.K. registered cars being driven around. We know for a fact that a lot of these cars belong to British expats living full time here. They still carry U.K. registration plates, French insurance, French CT (same as MOT) and no tax disk. They argue that as the car has a CT and French insurance that they are road legal. Can you please tell me if this is true.

 

John.

 

Thank you for your email.

It depends on how long the vehicle is abroad for. The following information may be of use to you.

I should begin by explaining, since the 1st January 2004, the Continuous Registration legislation became effective. Under this legislation, the registered keeper of a vehicle is legally responsible for ensuring his/her vehicle is currently taxed or a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) has been declared at all times.

Registered keepers will continue to be responsible for their vehicle until DVLA is notified that the vehicle has been scrapped, sold or exported, or unless SORN has been declared. Please note that as quoted in the Vehicles Registration and Licensing Regulations 2002, SORN declarations are only valid if the vehicle is kept off road in Great Britain or Northern Ireland.

If a vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country (for less than twelve months) but remains registered in Great Britain, the vehicle must be licensed.

If you have a V5C Registration Certificate and are registered as the keeper of the vehicle, you should take the document with you. If you do not have a V5C you should apply for one on V62* application form. The V62 should be returned to DVLA Swansea and will take between 4/6 weeks to issue.

However, if you are in possession of the V5C/2 new keepers supplement the DVLA local office may be able to issue a V379/1 temporary Certificate of Registration to cover the period the vehicle is out of the country. The addresses of the DVLA local offices can be found on our website below. If you make your application in person to a Local Office you will also need to provide proof of identity e.g. Passport, Driving Licence or a Utilities Bill, which clearly shows your name and address, and also proof of purchase or Bill of Sale for the vehicle.

If your tax expires and you need to renew it while you are abroad, provided you have a V5C, you may apply for a new tax disc by post using the application V10. The application should be sent to one of the Post Offices® listed in the booklet V100 or to a DVLA local office. The V10 forms are available from the Post Office or can be downloaded from our website. The V100 booklets are available from DVLA or Post Offices. Your application can be made up to six weeks in advance. All applications will require original V5C, or, V5C/2.

However, if the V5/C or the V5C/2 is not available you can submit a V62* application form. Provided you are shown as current keeper on DVLA records or if the previous keeper has notified DVLA of the disposal of the vehicle. You will also need to provide the original Insurance Certificate/Cover Note and MOT Certificate documentation to your Local Office. If you give a despatch address abroad the tax disc of the vehicle can be sent to you there. Remember that it is in your interest to check with your insurer that your use abroad is properly covered. You will also need to fix GB plates on your vehicle to identify the country of registration.

*If you do not have a Registration Document/Certificate there will be a charge for replacement Vehicle Registration Certificates.(£19)

If a vehicle is taken abroad for 12 months or more it is regarded as being permanently exported.

If a new style V5C registration certificate has been issued for the vehicle, you will need to notify DVLA of export using the V5C/4 (notification of permanent export) slip from the V5C. You may then take the remainder of the V5C to the new country when the vehicle is being exported.

If you are not in possession of the V5C, you will need to apply for one using form V62 which is available at the Post Office® or can be downloaded from our website below. When the V5C is then received, you should send the V5C/4 (notification of permanent export) slip to DVLA and take the remainder of the V5C to the new country to re-register.

Alternatively, if there are no changes to your address details as held on our record, you may telephone 0870 240 0010, using a debit/credit card. A Certificate will be issued immediately to the registered address which you should receive within 3 working days. Visa and MasterCard credit cards are accepted over the phone along with Switch/Maestro and Delta debit cards.

If you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Regards

E L Davies 
www.direct.gov.uk/motoring  


[THREAD ID:1-EHGC4]

 

The red is my highlighting...


 

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Simple, as far as the DVLA is concerned you can take the car to another EU country for up to 12 months provided it's taxed, MOTed (where required) and insured, in the same way as you would do in the UK. At 12 months abroad the car must be exported or taken back to the UK.

The rest of the letter is about how to export it or how to get a new tax disk and what paperwork is required. As it says you are responsible for the car UNLESS you have got a SORN on it in which case the car must be inside the UK and NI.

It just reaffirms what we have said in this thread.

Although it does not actually say "These people are driving illegally" it implies it by stating what is required to drive a UK registered car abroad under UK law with a UK registered car. As nobody with French insurance, CT in place of a MOT and the car has no tax disk is complying with the contents of the email they, as we have said, are breaking UK law. In doing this it further implies, as I read it, that it is also breaking EU law.

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