Baware if you are driving on UK plates

[Clair]

Re DVLA check:

We had two UK registered vehicules legally and advised the DVLA of their export to France in early 2003.

One of them is now showing as exported, the other as unlicenced...

[allanb]

[quote user="Will"]The point is, that if you are a resident of a European country using a foreign plated vehicle without at least starting to re-register it, you are in breach of the law. Whether or not you think you need obey the law, whether you are likely to get caught or not, whether your vehicle is taxed or insured, or what ducking and diving you may do to conceal the true situation, are all side issues to the main principle.[/quote]Whether your vehicle is taxed is a matter between you and the government, and doesn't concern me.  The small loss of tax revenue isn't going to affect my lifestyle.

However, if you are in breach of the law you may also be in breach of the conditions of your insurance policy, which potentially concerns not only me but everyone else on the road.

[Quillan]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="Will"]The point is, that if you are a resident of a European country using a foreign plated vehicle without at least starting to re-register it, you are in breach of the law. Whether or not you think you need obey the law, whether you are likely to get caught or not, whether your vehicle is taxed or insured, or what ducking and diving you may do to conceal the true situation, are all side issues to the main principle.[/quote]Whether your vehicle is taxed is a matter between you and the government, and doesn't concern me.  The small loss of tax revenue isn't going to affect my lifestyle.

However, if you are in breach of the law you may also be in breach of the conditions of your insurance policy, which potentially concerns not only me but everyone else on the road.

[/quote]

Sorry to repeat this but having asked the DVLA a couple f years back they clearly said that if a car carries a UK registration number then it is registered in the UK somewhere and that by having a UK registration number it must comply with UK law to be driven on a road anywhere in the world i.e. it must have a valid UK tax disk, have a UK MOT if applicable and be driven with a minimum of 3rd party insurance that primarily complies to UK (and EU) law.

On top of that you then have the laws of the country in which the car currently resides, in our case French. Clearly if the owner is resident in a different country then the car should be exported to that country and registered there and comply with the laws of that country.

To be honest it's just down to laziness with these people because the financial difference definitely points to it being cheaper to have a car on French plates with no car tax and cheaper insurance. It's laziness because they just can't get off their backside and get it done.

I also think it is a disgrace that the the French authorities allow this situation to continue but thats up to them I guess.

[Frederick]

Thanks  S D ....I was just wondering how long a registration number was kept "Live " in the system if the DVLA knew it was out of the country ... so I suppose the answer is forever !

[peterj]

Hi All

There is an interesting article in the French-News newspaper.

Says that yes you can now legally keep your British or other EU member states registration at least until you sell the car.

Also it mentions.

That in Article R322. du code de la route, that a French residents car registered in another EU state needs to

obtain French registration.

I re-registered my uk car 3 years ago.

Maybe Sunday Driver could comment on this.

 

Regards Peter

[Russethouse]

Could you give a link to the article ? Or more information, please ?

[pimpernel]

What happens if these cars are not technically owned by the French resident. They could be registered to a UK resident and just "borrowed" by the person resident in France!  Also not re registering is not just down to laziness. There could be a problem with the C.O.C. due to the car being a foreign car to the EU, kit car etc. The vehicle may have had modifications that the French don't recognise.. It is very awkward to re register some vehicles. If the French don't like it then they should simplify the system.

[Quillan]

[quote user="pimpernel"]What happens if these cars are not technically owned by the French resident. They could be registered to a UK resident and just "borrowed" by the person resident in France!  Also not re registering is not just down to laziness. There could be a problem with the C.O.C. due to the car being a foreign car to the EU, kit car etc. The vehicle may have had modifications that the French don't recognise.. It is very awkward to re register some vehicles. If the French don't like it then they should simplify the system.[/quote]

Seeing as you are new to the forum perhaps I can help you. With regards to registering a kit car it can be done and there is thread about it here.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/624452/ShowPost.aspx

You will see the same rules apply for a kit car as for those that do not have a C.O.C. and all that is required is to go to the DRIRI  and ask for a "reception de titre isole". Nothing is awkward if you know how to do it, it's just that it takes time and being awkward is not really a valid excuse. If you can't be bothered then flog the car in the UK and get a French car, that's what in effect the French are saying. As I said it's just down to a 'can't be bothered' attitude, better known as laziness.

[pimpernel]

You are of course quite correct. The cars should be sold and nice new French ones bought. But people who have built there own car and have been driving it legally in an EU country for many years are a bit put out to find that it becomes illegal if they live in France. It is not just a question of a visit to DRIRE. This is usually just the start of a very long and frustrating journey. I know the argument is that if you don't want to do it then don't move to France. But I can also see the other side. If it is kept UK MOT'd and taxed and insured and registered at a Bona Fide address in the UK then why beat youself up by French registering.

[Tony F Dordogne]

So what that it's a long and frustrating journey?  Both you and the damned car are in France - you want to live by UK vehicle regulations, go back to the UK.  You want to live here, follow the French laws, what happens next, you want to break the law on other things because it suits you best?

[pimpernel]

Did anyone say they wanted to break the law !

 

 Sorry for the edit I've calmed down now!

[woolybanana]

Leaving aside the Welsh connection or not, the whole farcical situation boils down to, lets face it, the failure of different governments to behave like adults. Honestly, is a kit car that has been registered in UK any less safe than some of the aged trash that runs round rural France? The French seem so bent on imposing their vision at times that they forget the European dimension.[6]

[pimpernel]

Just to add another little dimension to this. Caravans. A person has used their caravan to tour europe for a number of years no problem. They've spent six very enjoyable months each year touring. They think as they enjoy France so much lets go and live there. So they pack up their belongings and buy a place in France. They don't want to break any laws so they immediately re register their car. Bingo! they can no longer use their caravan. The caravan maker cannot give them a COC for whatever reason and DRIRE are no help because the internal fixtures and fittings don't conform either. They can't sell it in France except for scrap,and they can't tow it back to England because as soon as it's hitched to their now French registered vehicle it is illegal. There is nothing wrong with the caravan other than it doesn't have the correct paperwork. It is not unsafe and there has been no problem with it on French roads until the owner became a French resident. If the holier than thou brigade can't see how ridiculous this is then there is no hope.

 

Another example is 7.5 tonne horseboxes. Perfectly legal in England subject to stringent ministry tests so probably even more safe than some of the vehicles I've seen leaving CT centres in France. But to obtain all the necessary certificates and paperwork for them,as it is not only the vehicle but the box it's carrying that has to conform,would cost many thousands of pounds. I repeat there is nothing wrong with the vehicle or box other than paperwork.Is it any wonder that people can be reluctant to re-register or try to find a way to circumnavigate the law.It would be a very bored Gendarme who would wish to get involved in the legalites of nicking an English registered, taxed, tested and insured vehicle because it's owner was a French resident. Anyway, as far as I've seen of gendarmes demanding that Brits with UK licences change them to French licences because they are French residents demonstrates that gendarmes have very little knowledge of the law.

 

Before all the people who usually come on and throw their arms up in horror and say if you don't like it then go back to the uk. I would just like them to stop and think. There are many reasons why this is a ridiculous thing to say. Due to many personal or professional reasons people may not be able to go back to the UK no matter how much they would like to.

 

Right, I'll just go and hide under the table now, just in case the usual war breaks out.

[Bob T]

[quote user="pimpernel"]You are of course quite correct. The cars should be sold and nice new French ones bought. But people who have built there own car and have been driving it legally in an EU country for many years are a bit put out to find that it becomes illegal if they live in France. It is not just a question of a visit to DRIRE. This is usually just the start of a very long and frustrating journey. I know the argument is that if you don't want to do it then don't move to France. But I can also see the other side. If it is kept UK MOT'd and taxed and insured and registered at a Bona Fide address in the UK then why beat youself up by French registering.[/quote]

But to have a UK MOT and tax, you must have UK insurance. If you read the small print then you will find that you need to be a UK resident for that. So you break two rules, the insurance company's and the French importation rules. A Bona Fide address in the UK does not mean that you are not French resident, there are rules for that too.

We are just going around in circles here, some people will read the rules in any way that they can to suit their situation.

[pimpernel]

[quote user="Bob T"]
We are just going around in circles here, some people will read the rules in any way that they can to suit their situation.
[/quote]

 

I apologise to the people who are losing interest because they think they are going around in circles.That's why I think it is important to discuss it . I know of two different people who have been living in France for over eight years ,still on UK plates. They are convinced they are legal or else they wouldn't keep going back to have an MOT test each year. Other people see them and think ,well if they've been here that long it must be OK. I'm new to this forum so the arguments are still quite interesting to me. However I can do without the "if you don't like it go back home "brigade. I prefer to hear a more reasoned argument. It would be nice to hear a definitive official stand. And if there is one, how do the UK platers get away with it.

Has anyone ever heard of a UK plater being prosecuted or being in an accident and their insurance refusing to pay. This all may be old stuff to you all ,but remember I'm a new boy so may take some time to come up to speed.

[ESB]

Bob T said
But to have a UK MOT and tax, you must have UK insurance. If you read the small print then you will find that you need to be a UK resident for that. So you break two rules, the insurance company's and the French importation rules.

Are you suggesting that you cannot satisfy the rules of UK residency at the same time as being a French Resident?

[Quillan]

[quote user="pimpernel"]

[quote user="Bob T"]
We are just going around in circles here, some people will read the rules in any way that they can to suit their situation.
[/quote]

 

I apologise to the people who are losing interest because they think they are going around in circles.That's why I think it is important to discuss it . I know of two different people who have been living in France for over eight years ,still on UK plates. They are convinced they are legal or else they wouldn't keep going back to have an MOT test each year. Other people see them and think ,well if they've been here that long it must be OK. I'm new to this forum so the arguments are still quite interesting to me. However I can do without the "if you don't like it go back home "brigade. I prefer to hear a more reasoned argument. It would be nice to hear a definitive official stand. And if there is one, how do the UK platers get away with it.

Has anyone ever heard of a UK plater being prosecuted or being in an accident and their insurance refusing to pay. This all may be old stuff to you all ,but remember I'm a new boy so may take some time to come up to speed.

[/quote]

I agree that there are inconsistencies between the UK and France that make things difficult at times. The longer I have lived here the more I have come to the conclusion that it's the UK that has a EU problem and not the French. Just in daily life you look around at the rest of Europe and you see that things are similar until you get to the UK which is different. I won't go further with this except in reference to cars as it will drift away from the basis of the thread.

I have a French car and a UK caravan and am in the same boat as others in that I can't get it approved in France because of it's age and I cannot get a C.O.C for the chassis from the maker. Last year I bought a new caravan, a Hobby, I bought it in Germany because they are considerably cheaper. I took the paperwork to my Prefecture and 'walked' it round and came away with my new French documentation on the same day, no problem. Many people in my area buy their cars from Spain because we are so close to the border and the cars are cheaper. They also get their cars changed over to French plates with no problem. I have a friend who bought a car from Belgium, again no problem. My neighbour is Dutch and changed his car over and it also took him a day by 'walking' the paperwork round. I cannot comment about buying cars from other EU countries other than these because I don't know of anyone personally who has done it. It seems to me it's only people coming from the UK that have any problems which tends to point to the fact it's the UK that has the problem.

As I said in this thread earlier I did exactly what you suggested because I had my car registered at a UK address and it was UK legal. I was not 'resident' in France at the time, I only became resident when I started my business and then I sold the UK car back in the UK and bought a (one year old) French car. Surprisingly I found it a lot easier to drive with the steering wheel on the left and I felt safer getting out of 'T' junctions in particular and there are other safety benefits in general (overtaking is another car or lorry for example).

As I and others have said all the UK insurance policies say that you must be resident for them to insure you (I checked this on several insurance companies over the Internet, see my post further back). I don't know if that's the law but the contract definitely says this. You can't legally be resident in two places as far as I know but of course you can claim to be and I am sure there are those who think they have seen a loop hole and claim to be. On the assumption you can't be legally resident in two countries then what you suggested makes you resident in the UK. By saying you are you are being economical with the truth and therefor in breach of contract with the insurer so they have the right to cancel your insurance. Driving without insurance is a criminal offence (not motoring) in the UK, I have no idea which part of French law it comes under.

There is also the possible implications in France of claiming that your residency is the UK. If you have followed the health issues thread there is a possibility that if you are resident here and have been contributing as an inactif for 5 years you may continue to enjoy the benefits of the system. If you are resident in the UK just to make your car 'legal' then you could forfeit your right to enjoy the benefits of the French health system. There are probably other rights as well that you could loose by claiming to be UK resident. It's something you should be aware of and investigate before you 'nail' yourself to a particular mast.

I know of at least one person in my area who takes his car back to the UK every year for a MOT to keep his car 'legal'. It takes 12 hours to drive to Calais from here then there is the ferry time and the time the other side to get to a MOT station. To my mind that's like living in London and taking your car to Edinburgh for a MOT every year, you would have to be mad to do that. There is also the time period to take in to account, it takes this guy five days to get it done, two days to get to the UK (he stops half way), a day in the UK for the MOT then two days to get back. I suppose it's not much of a problem if you live up near one of the ports and can just 'pop' across and get an MOT etc.

It is bazaar that the French authorities allow this situation to continue and give the appearance that they don't care. After living here for so long (just stared my sixth year) it does not surprise me. You develop the French shrug and just say 'well it's France, it's different'. If I had a Euro for every time I had heard that magical saying "well we wouldn't do that in England" I would be a millionaire by now.

I think that those people who get 'wound up' about this subject are basically frightened and perhaps justifiably so. You asked if anyone knows of a person who has not received payment from an insurance company in France where a car has UK plates and French CT and insurance, if you read back through this thread I think the answer is yes. It's that which which people are worried or frightened of because it could be them or a member of their family that gets hurt or that their car gets written off and without the insurance payment they can' afford to buy another car.

The other thing that gets them going, and again probably quite justifiably so, is that all the 'work rounds' basically involve either being economical with the truth or doing something illegal and they feel quite strongly that it's wrong for people to suggest that others do the same thing. It's like inciting people to do something illegal.

With regards to the definitive legal position a guy called Sunday Driver is very hot on finding this sort of thing out and has posted the legalities of registering a car in French and at what point you have to do it in our forum. He also found a lot of information out about registering a UK kit car for another member which you may find of interest.

My personal feeling is that if t were me I would try my hardest to get my car registered here and if I couldn't then I would way up the benefits I gain in living here against those of taking my car back to the UK and selling it. I know which option I would follow.

[Bob T]

[quote user="pimpernel"]

[quote user="Bob T"]

We are just going around in circles here, some people will read the rules in any way that they can to suit their situation.

[/quote]

 

I apologise to the people who are losing interest because they think they are going around in circles.That's why I think it is important to discuss it . I know of two different people who have been living in France for over eight years ,still on UK plates. They are convinced they are legal or else they wouldn't keep going back to have an MOT test each year. Other people see them and think ,well if they've been here that long it must be OK. I'm new to this forum so the arguments are still quite interesting to me. However I can do without the "if you don't like it go back home "brigade. I prefer to hear a more reasoned argument. It would be nice to hear a definitive official stand. And if there is one, how do the UK platers get away with it.

Has anyone ever heard of a UK plater being prosecuted or being in an accident and their insurance refusing to pay. This all may be old stuff to you all ,but remember I'm a new boy so may take some time to come up to speed.

[/quote]

I never said "go back home". If you want reasoned argument then the rules are that if you are French resident you must import your car, however difficult that may be.

Just because others have not complied with French law then I does not mean that it is OK to ignore the law.

Why not tell your insurance company that you are considered a French resident by the residency rules and see if they will still want to cover you?

[Bob T]

[quote user="ESB"]

Bob T said

But to have a UK MOT and tax, you must have UK insurance. If you read the small print then you will find that you need to be a UK resident for that. So you break two rules, the insurance company's and the French importation rules.

Are you suggesting that you cannot satisfy the rules of UK residency at the same time as being a French Resident?

[/quote]

No I am not saying that, but French law says that if you are French resident, then you must register your car. It does not say that you can try and keep residency in two countries to get around the law. I am not sure if you can officially be resident in two countries, but I would have thought that it was difficult. How can your main residence be in more places than one, main is the main which implies one.

[cooperlola]

Problem is, you'll never talk people out of cheeting if that's what they're determined to do. Even if you explain to them in words of one sylable that they are breaking the law and could do untold damage to somebody's life if they killed or maimed a person whilst driving uninsured.

[IMG]http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q103/cooperlola/pchead.gif[/IMG]

[Sunday Driver]

pimpernel

The issue about driving vehicles in countries other than where they are registered arises from EU tax legislation. 

Because different member states have different taxation rates, it would be possible to buy and register a vehicle in a lower taxation state then just run it in your own higher taxation state.  An example would be buying a new UK registered vehicle and paying 17.5% VAT then running it in France on it's UK plates thereby avoiding the higher 19,6% French VAT.  To prevent this situation, the regulations state that one may not drive a foreign registered vehicle in one's country of residence.

These principles are translated into each member state's national law.  A resident of the UK bringing a French registered car into the country may not drive it on the highway (apart from the trip from the port of entry to their home and to an MOT testing station) until they re-register it with the DVLA.  In France, the local rule is more liberal in that you may drive the car on it's old UK plates for one month before registering it (the same timescale as in the case of change of ownership/address of a French car).

In all cases, the vehicle must be declared for import on arrival and any customs duty and VAT accounted for before it can be legally used on the roads.

Foreign residents visiting another EU country (eg, holidays or short term business trips) may drive their foreign registered car for up to six months in any twelve month period without having to re-register and acquit the local taxes.

I suspect that many people moving to France have never been involved in importing/exporting a vehicle before, so they're probably totally unaware of these regulations.

 

 

 

[ESB]

Quote "You can't legally be resident in two places as far as I know but of course you can claim to be"

Residency is an issue which is becoming more complex, driven primarily by taxation issues. Rules of residency can relate to the  time spent in a country, domicile, nationality and centre of interests. Each one of these areas could in theory point to a different country of 'residence'. 

The rules are essentially defined by each country. Thus it is possible to be resident in more than one country e.g. you spend more time in UK working than at home in France but wife and kids live in France. Your domicile is in France therefore French resident but your time in UK gives you fiscal residence (at the very least) in the UK and perhaps by having a business and other assets you could be resident through 'centre of interests' criteria.

EDIT: Bob T I just saw your post.

I think this is a very difficult issue in that if you are de facto reident of more thasn one country as above you may find that you need to register a car in eah country to comply with that country's rules as expanded by Sunday Driver.

[pimpernel]

Thanks for everyone being patient with me. My problem with comprehension is that as Sunday Driver appears to provide the definitive answer and I think all is clear,up pops ESB who also seems to have an answer and it is at odds with Sundaydriver.

[ESB]

Hi pimpernel

Please dont take my assertions as an answer, they are observations really.

What I was attempting to do was simply illustrate that all may not be as clear cut as some people suggest. I have no intention of suggesting what SD has said is not correct, but only that there can be situations that don't easily fit the mould. There can in fact be certain situations where the rules of each country cause some problems between themselves. This area of law is aptly called 'Conflict of Laws' and not surprisingly it is something of a growth area.

[Sunday Driver]

In terms of the original theme of this thread, I think it relates to those people who have sold up in the UK and moved to France, so the issue of domicile/residency raised by ESB introduces a complexity which is actually covered under the regulations, but not necessarily relevant to pimpernel's understanding of the basics.

The bottom line is that if you own a car, then you want to drive it.  People regard this as a basic human right and the law is something which potentially stops you exercising that right. I'd be surprised to learn of anyone who brought their UK car over here, then locked it away after a month because they hadn't yet received their certificate of conformity from the French importer or were still searching for scrap headlamps for the CT test.

There will be people who believe they can continue to drive their pride and joy anywhere they like because they are unaware of the regulations or the risks.  They've driven their cars quite legally in France on holiday without any problem, so why would things be different now?

There will be people who know/have been told about the regulations and would like to comply, but forsee/experience problems.  For them, breaking these obscure/petty laws seems to be a risk worth taking in order to be able to continue using their car, but they may not be aware of the potential consequences.

There will be people who couldn't care less about the regulations and will ignore them anyway.

Not much different to life in the UK.......