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Baware if you are driving on UK plates


Bob T
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Sunday Driver or Ron are more knowledgable than I, but insurance companies are commercial companies, isn't it up to them to make their own conditions known ?

I also think you are mistaken about the MIB otherwise there would be little point to them would there ? In my god daughters case there was an insurance company involved who simply passed the buck to the MIB, if they were going to end up with the bill anyway there would have been little point.

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Gay

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ESB, you ask why there is no mention of insurance. It is because you have quoted a Road Tax website.

We all know that insurance is required on a car, but your contract is with the insurance company, and does not really involve a third party if the contract is seen to be in breach because you have not told the whole truth when signing that contract.

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Not sure how UK plated cars in France has got to a discussion about the pros and cons of UK road tax or people not risking their lives to dive into a lake of unknown depth where a boy had been under the water for 10 minutes when they got there........... funny nobody asked why the fishermen who had been there all the time did not go in after him but we digress.........having no road tax would not invalidate a claim in the UK unless the policy specified otherwise, not having a current MOT might if it became known and an inspection revealed the car to be defective though.

One of the arguements for keeping the road tax in the UK is that you have to produce an MOT and insurance to get it, so the inference is, without road tax you may not have one or both of the others. As Coops had said this has failings as insurance can be a cover note and valid only for one day longer, and an MOT is only an indication of roadworthiness at the time of the inspection as you can change tyres etc after an MOT.

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"You have taken all reasonable steps to protect the Insured Car from any loss or damage. You must have also kept the Insured Car in an efficient and roadworthy condition and allow the Insurer free access to examine it at any reasonable time."

The above statement is typical of the terms & conditions found in a UK insurance contract. The underlined bit is the reference that applies to this thread in that an untaxed or un-Mot'd car driven on the highway is not considered roadworthy. 

 

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One of the arguements for keeping the road tax in

the UK is that you have to produce an MOT and insurance to get it, so

the inference is, without road tax you may not have one or both of the

others. As Coops had said this has failings as insurance can be a cover

note and valid only for one day longer

You could also have an Mot certificate with 1 day remaining, it's still valid to get a road tax renewal.

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Theres a load of stuff here http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/chapter_a.html#10

You are not automatically unensured untill the case gets to court at which time the insurance company has to prove why they are removing the insurance. Up till that time you would have the absolute minimum insurance i.e. 3rd party only.

Whilst doing a search for this info I just discovered that speeding has now been upgraded from a driving to a criminal offence in the UK, I never knew that! Off topic I know but I didn't know if anyone esle knew.

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The lack of a current tax disc or MOT certificate are not, in themselves, grounds for invalidating an insurance.

Bugbear's policy terms and conditions quote:

"You have taken all reasonable steps to protect the Insured Car from any loss or damage. You must have also kept the Insured Car in an efficient and roadworthy condition and allow the Insurer free access to examine it at any reasonable time."

is typical of insurer policies which merely state that the vehicle must be roadworthy.  As we all well know, the existence of an MOT certificate is no indicator of the roadworthiness of a vehicle - that can only be established by the insurance assessor in the event of a claim.

Remember, you are permitted by law to drive an un-MOT'd vehicle to a testing station appointment, so what happens if you have a bump on the way?  What happens if your vehicle is MOT expired and legally SORNed - but catches fire on your driveway or a slate falls off the roof onto it?

Oh, and the tax disc is purely a excise duty issue and is a red herring......

 

 

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All of which vindicates my unpopular but nonetheless true conviction that a UK insurance company will always meet genuine 3rd party claims even if the insured has lied (whether it be previous convictions or country of residence) to get the insurance, they will also meet 3rd party claims when the vehicle (remember it is the vehicle as well as the driver that is insured) is being driven by other than the insured, whether he has lent it to a driver not covered under the policy or if it has been stolen, (this is where my knowledge comes from).

However I do not know if this applies to French issued policies (whether or not on a UK registered car), Ron has indicated that in one instance this was not the case (I am assuming that it was a French insurer, not whether the car was or wasnt UK registered)

My usual attitude is to live and let but if I were for the moment to join the "self-righteous brothers" (another Harry Enfield creation, some of whom are believed to lurk on this forum!) then I would not be overly worried if a British insured UK registered car were to hit mine, but if it were French insured I would say "OY EX- PAT PERSON NO!!!!!!"

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Not sure how UK plated cars in France has got to a discussion about the pros and cons of UK road tax or people not risking their lives to dive into a lake of unknown depth where a boy had been under the water for 10 minutes when they got there........... funny nobody asked why the fishermen who had been there all the time did not go in after him but we digress.........having no road tax would not invalidate a claim in the UK unless the policy specified otherwise, not having a current MOT might if it became known and an inspection revealed the car to be defective though.

One of the arguements for keeping the road tax in the UK is that you have to produce an MOT and insurance to get it, so the inference is, without road tax you may not have one or both of the others. As Coops had said this has failings as insurance can be a cover note and valid only for one day longer, and an MOT is only an indication of roadworthiness at the time of the inspection as you can change tyres etc after an MOT.

[/quote]

The original discussion was about rule breakers, in this case about those with illegal vehicles in France. One poster implied the total importance of obeying the rules. My post countered that with the example mentioned above. Incidentally, the fishermen had already saved a life and were exhausted.

We agree then that the Road Tax disc does not make a vehicle roadworthy or even MOT'd for, in extreme cases, more than one day. So, it is not much more than a revenue gathering device. And probably an expensive one. Why not make insurance contingent on an MOT of say 11 months? Then have just an insurance disc as I suggested earlier. Think of the jobsworthys who could be moved onto doing better things.

As to those in France, well, I reserve judgement. The gendarmes will get them eventually I guess. Reporting them without another reason sets a very dangerous precedent, then there are those who wont and those who will.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]Insurance companies are commercial companies, isn't it up to them to make their own conditions known ?[/quote]They do, don't they?  They state them in a document called the insurance policy.[quote]I also think you are mistaken about the MIB otherwise there would be little point to them would there ?[/quote]The point of the MIB is that if you are driving in France, and you are damaged or injured by a driver from (say) Morocco or Ukraine, you can deal with your claim through the French MIB rather than having to deal with a Moroccan or Ukrainian insurance company. 

You and your god-daughter have my sympathy, but obviously I can't comment on what happened or didn't happen in that particular case.  

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[quote user="allanb"][quote user="Russethouse"]Insurance companies are commercial companies, isn't it up to them to make their own conditions known ?[/quote]They do, don't they?  They state them in a document called the insurance policy]

Quite! They do, they do not state it on the DVLA web site though.....

[quote]I also think you are mistaken about the MIB otherwise there would be little point to them would there ?[/quote]The point of the MIB is that if you are driving in France, and you are damaged or injured by a driver from (say) Morocco or Ukraine, you can deal with your claim through the French MIB rather than having to deal with a Moroccan or Ukrainian insurance company. 

You and your god-daughter have my sympathy, but obviously I can't comment on what happened or didn't happen in that particular case.  
[/quote]

My understanding is that if you are a victim of someone who is uninsured the MIB will meet the claim and they are funded by a levy on all UK insurance companies. As it happens my god daughter was hit by a car and someone passing had the presence of mind to take the cars number - it was traced and the owner denied all knowledge of who the driver may be, therefore the matter was passed to the MIB. I have no idea what their function is rearding international matters and I have asked here before whether France has a similar safety net system.

 Do you know for certain that there is a French equivilent to the MIB ? That may be useful information in the future for someone.

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[quote user="Russethouse"] Do you know for certain that there is a French equivalent to the MIB ? That may be useful information in the future for someone.[/quote]There is an equivalent of the MIB in every country that is party to the relevant agreement.  The list of countries, and the name, address and phone number of the MIB equivalent, are shown on the back of the standard international insurance certificate (green card).  On my latest green card there are 43 of them.

My favourite local Bureau name is the Finnish one, which is Liikennevakuutuskeskus.  Lots of luck with that on the phone.     

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So, help me out here because I am thick. If a  Brit plated car which has been over in France for say five years and which has no MOT or insurance from the UK but has the those from France damages either another car or a person, then the claim will be met by this French organisation, if the French insurance company refuses the claim?
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This is an assumption based on the English system so you will have to draw your own conclusions.

The claim would be met by the insurers assuming it was not contested and it was clearly the insured vehicle that caused the damage, ie no dispute, but lets say the insured was really a resident of another country or had made some other maldeclaration, add in no tax and MOT for good measure.

They would meet the claim because it was their insured vehicle and possibly driver that caused the damage, if they didnt pay out the fund wouldnt work as all the participating companies would effectively be subsidising the one company that refused such claims.

The scheme is for hit and run accidents/injuries where the vehicle and driver cannot be indentified and hence nor the insurer. It also comes into play I believe if an insrance companie goes belly up.

Editted

In the above and all the other hypothetical examples that have been cited it would be the claim by the insured for their vehicle etc that would come under scrutiny and probably be denied. An example if the insured vehicle was found to be lacking a test certificate the insurance company woud have to prove some vehicle deficiency that gave cause to the accident to win in a court of law.

Of course they may try it on and deny the "insureds claim" initially but would  cave in before it went to court if no such deficiency was found.

In my experience insurers either settle claims promptly without fuss, thus enhancing their reputation, or really dig their heels in because they are sure that the insured is in the wrong, there is not usually any middle ground, bad news travels faster than good.

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[quote user="woolybanana"]If a  Brit plated car which has been over in France for say five years and which has no MOT or insurance from the UK but has the those from France damages either another car or a person, then the claim will be met by this French organisation, if the French insurance company refuses the claim?[/quote]I don't know for sure, but I don't think the French MIB would be concerned in the case of a car with French insurance involved in an accident in France.  

As far as I know the functions of the various MIBs are mainly international.  For instance: I have a French motor insurance policy.  If I take my car to another country (let's call it Ruritania), the Ruritanian Bureau assumes the responsibility which a Ruritanian insurer would have under the laws of Ruritania governing compulsory motor insurance.  (This is taken straight from paragraph 1 on my green card.  Somebody could probably give us the exact text from an English green card.)

So if I injure somebody in Ruritania, he can deal direct with the local Bureau instead of having to deal with my French insurer. 

If I injure someone in France, I don't think anyone would be involved in the claim except me, my insurer, and the injured party. 

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Perhaps Ron or Sunday Driver  you know the answer to this .....Should some keen French policeman decide to make a list of all these UK plated cars found in airports or where ever....and then contact the DVLA by the web site and pass the list on.....and the DVLA  then find that these vehicles have been out of the UK for years  not subject of SORN declarations ...  export  notification   .MOT. etc .... what are they likely to do with  registration number....withdraw it ?  Further more what are the French Police  likely  to do ...collect them up ?   .....    I ask this as on the Costa del Sol  I saw lots of cars  Jags ...Range Rovers   good cars dust covered and in the care of the police when I once had to go to a Police Station  ....At the time I thought they were probably stolen or still owned by finance companies ...but perhaps they had not been registered for use in Spain ?
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Frederick

The somewhat emotive stance of people here towards UK registered cars is unlikely to be mirrored by the French authorities. 

In the highly unlikely event that some local French bobby will decide to compile a list of registration numbers, then go to all the trouble of finding out who the UK licencing authority is and contacting them, the DVLA can only do one thing - issue a demand for unpaid road tax to the registered keeper at the address shown on the V5C.  I'll leave it to you to consider what happens thereafter......

Unless these 'airport' vehicles are parked dangerously on the public road, then the police can't tow them away.  If they are parked in breach of airport parking rules, then the airport can have them towed away.

 

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[quote user="Ceejay"]Yes, SD, I think you have it in a nutshell, the issue of Tax is a red herring.
[/quote]

Isn't the whole thing a red herring, though admittedly one that people seem to take an almost perverse delight in discussing ad nauseam?

The point is, that if you are a resident of a European country using a foreign plated vehicle without at least starting to re-register it, you are in breach of the law. Whether or not you think you need obey the law, whether you are likely to get caught or not, whether your vehicle is taxed or insured, or what ducking and diving you may do to conceal the true situation, are all side issues to the main principle.

Incidentally, if you take a trip round the perimeter roads of CDG airport - such as on a hotel shuttle bus - you will see compounds containing foreign (not just British) registered vehicles, a mix of wrecks and expensive metal. Presumably illegally parked and removed.

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"Should some keen French policeman decide to make a list of all these UK

plated cars found in airports or where ever....and then contact the

DVLA by the web site and pass the list on".

I don't think you should rely on the information on the DVLA site. I checked my car details on there 12/18 months ago and it showed vehicle exported and now it comes up as unlicenced.[8-)]

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