Baware if you are driving on UK plates

[Bob T]

Well said, Ron.

[bigears]

hi

another hard hitting post ron, but a bit ott.  The fact that the uk hasn't got a similar system of displaying insurance details masks the problem.  I don't live my life being concerned about such issues as this, whether here or in the uk, that in all possibilities will not happen to me.  Only three weeks to go and my times up in France for this year.

[Ron Avery]

 "The fact that the uk hasn't got a similar system of displaying insurance details masks the problem."

What problem?  Bigears, are you suggesting that UK plated cars with an out of date  tax disc or none at all are actually insured for use in France or that the UK should adopt a system of displaying insurance details on the windscreens?

In the UK I understand that the Police have an on-board system in their cars to check whether cars are taxed, MOT'd and insured, so this should not be necessary should it?.  However, apart from those UK plated cars in France not being insured how many do you think have an up to date MOT given that few if any are CT'd? 

[allanb]

[quote user="bigears"]The fact that the uk hasn't got a similar system of displaying insurance details masks the problem.[/quote]It has nothing to do with the problem, as I see it.  The problem consists of drivers who fail to tell their insurers that their principal residence is in France, and who are therefore almost certainly uninsured.  If UK insurers provided a little windscreen sticker it wouldn't make any difference - they would still be uninsured.   Is this really difficult to understand?[quote]I don't live my life being concerned about such issues as this...[/quote]If you ever get hit by one of these characters you may suddenly get concerned.

[Russethouse]

>> I don't live my life being concerned about such issues as this, whether here or in the uk, that in all possibilities will not happen to me.<<

bigears I don't wish to be rude but I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land. My goddaughter (she was an adult and sober) just crossed the road and was hit by an uninsured driver - her neck was broken.

Think how you would feel if that happened to one of your loved ones ?

BTW inthe UK now there are cameras that are focussed on tax discs, usually police cars are parked up the road and can apprehend those that are not taxed or insured. It takes a nanho second to check.

[ESB]

Is it really the case that no Road Tax invalidates the compulsory insurance.

If that is really the case why dont Road Tax evaders in the UK who are prosecuted, get prosecuted for no insurance at the same time on the basis that the insurance is de facto invalidated. In my experience this does not happen (or at least didn't happen up to 2005 when I was in the frame so to speak).

[Russethouse]

Given the facility of the police to check the insurance through the tax disc I think it is.

By the way my husband renewed our tax on line this time, this meant that the insurance was checked on line before a disc was issued.

[woolybanana]

Of course there should be insurance discs on the wind screen, but which cause an electronic buzzer to ring when they pass certain points (this is an image you understand) that indicate that it is out of date or not there. But it is high time we also did away with this ridiculous jobsworthy tax disc system. It should be replaced by a tax at first registration system based on the average or better life of the car. Just like the ridiculous process of collecting TV licences. Out of date, job creation schemes for expensive desk jockeys.

[cooperlola]

Agreed Woolyb.  Much more polution is caused by new car production, than by running them.  Discouraging people from continually buying new, and encouaging them to use their existing cars for longer, is much better for the environment too.  And they should do away with those daft "my car's newer than yours" UK registration plates too.

The French system of showing up to date insurance is much better, imo.  You can get a tax disc in the UK with an insurance certificate which has but one day to run, if you wish.  Bonkers.

[Russethouse]

It should be replaced by a tax at first registration system based on the average or better life of the car.

Great idea Wooly - but with the lack of a comprehenive public transport system in rural areas how would the children of agricultural workers, for example, ever be able to afford transport to get to work ?

[ESB]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Given the facility of the police to check the insurance through the tax disc I think it is.

[/quote]

I was not talking about the ability to check if there is an insurance policy in force.

Its more about assertions that no when a car has no Road Tax the car is then  'non road legal' and therefore and as a direct result of having  no Road Tax the insurance policy in force is no longer valid.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick but it seemed that way to me. So is anyone actually suggesting that this is in fact the case? If not so then all the stuff about no Road Tax equals no insurance is not correct.

[Russethouse]

We have had this discussion before but I think  if you read your insurance document you will find that it says that in order to be active you must have the comply with the rules at the time, so for example if you MOT was out of date and you had an accident the insurance company would not pay up, the same goes for road fund.

My point was that if it didn't matter why would the police check it ?

[woolybanana]

RH, they will probably do what they do now which is buy second hand cars or on credit. Which is not ideal, but the State desperately needs to reduce its expenditure and removing civil servants from unnecessary functions is one way of doing it.

Apropos of an earlier posting, it is necessary to break rules and conventions to progress and force change. Top down management of people has always led to failure. The question to decide is what rules is it acceptable to break and how far to go. Enforcement of those rules led to the ludicrous situation a few weeks ago of two Mickey Mouse coppers NOT trying to save a life because the rules said so. However, two of these coppers in another county DID jump in the water a couple of weeks later, against orders, and did save lives (I think it was two little girls).

 

[ESB]

The Police  would check to see if you had insurance that was valid - no brainer really.

But if the insurance is invalidted in such a way, why no prosecutions for no insurance if no Road Tax? I understand the MOT bit because it is a road safety issue but Road Tax is not.

Are you absolutely sure no Road Tax means no payout?

[Will]

I believe it is uncommon and unlikely for an insurer - or at least a British one - to avoid paying damages to innocent third parties in cases where a policy is current, but could be renderd invalid through the vehicle not meeting the legal requirements of the country of registration. And a UK-registered vehicle without current road fund licence or MoT certificate would seem not to meet those requirements, regardless of national rules elsewhere. Though having said that I do seem to remember one such case mentioned here peviously.

Any payout would most likely only be based on the minimum legal cover, and exclude own damage and other extras. So a prosecution for being uninsured for a vehicle had had an insurance policy but no tax disc would be on rather uncertain grounds.

[Russethouse]

It could be academic for the third party as 'uninsured loss', the body that all insurers pay into, would pay out - however I'm not sure they would pay the owner. I used to think there was a period of grace, but I certainly wouldn't count on it.

I know that some magistrates would like to alter the system so that you are required to have a minimum amount of cover remaining when you renew your road fund license, but as far as I know nothing has come of it.

[ESB]

Being a drunk driver causing an accident does not ivaliadte the legality of the insurance either, in my experience. Same principle I suppose. I am sure it would have other effects on how payments were made beyond the legal minimum.

Aded after post with RH crossed:

It may be academic or not but it seems to me many people who post here think that no Road Tax = uninsured.

[Maricopa]

[quote user="ESB"]

 why no prosecutions for no insurance if no Road Tax?

[/quote]

Whilst not having done so since we moved out here last year, I always used to read the Court Round-up in our local rag (Portsmouth Evening News).  Whenever there was a prosecution for No Road Fund Licence, there was ALWAYS the additional prosecution for Driving Without Valid Insurance.

[Russethouse]

Being a drunk driver causing an accident does not ivaliadte the legality of the insurance either, in my experience. Same principle I suppose. I am sure it would have other effects on how payments were made beyond the legal minimum.

For those affected or for the drunk driver or both ?

Wooly - it surely follows that the price of those second hand cars would go up and possibly make them unaffordable.......

 

[ESB]

[quote user="Maricopa"][quote user="ESB"]

 why no prosecutions for no insurance if no Road Tax?

[/quote]

Whilst not having done so since we moved out here last year, I always used to read the Court Round-up in our local rag (Portsmouth Evening News).  Whenever there was a prosecution for No Road Fund Licence, there was ALWAYS the additional prosecution for Driving Without Valid Insurance.

[/quote]

I have no answer for that though my experience as a criminal defence lawyer never included any prosecution directly linking the lack of Road Tax to invalidating an extant insurance policy.and I have dealt with what I thought were some super keen & thorough prosectors.

 I have dealt with a couple of cases where false declarations made getting the insurance by the 'defendant', brought to light on the back of other motoring offences, invalidated the insurance and led to a conviction. I think that is something to do with false declarations allowing the policy to be voided ab initio.

[woolybanana]

Yes I thought of that RH. In Denmark a few years ago the basic price of cars was the lowest in Europe because there was a very high tax to put the car on the road. (Belgium is another case in point). I suspect something like that might happen in UK. Or, as the actual tax might also be linked to fuel and pollution efficiency, which I think it is now isn't it, some cars would not increase that much coupled with the above. So, second hand values would remain in the same range as now.

But the part of the take for the government would be upfront.

In addition, I suspect that cars are cheaper nowadays as a proportion of wages than they used to be eg the Dacia.

Perhaps the money made from speed cameras and from unnecessary government employment could install a system of checking insurance discs (MOT linked to insurance) and be used for subsidizing rural transport.

[derf]

[quote user="Maricopa"][quote user="ESB"]

 why no prosecutions for no insurance if no Road Tax?

[/quote]

Whilst not having done so since we moved out here last year, I always used to read the Court Round-up in our local rag (Portsmouth Evening News).  Whenever there was a prosecution for No Road Fund Licence, there was ALWAYS the additional prosecution for Driving Without Valid Insurance.

[/quote]

Maybe it's because they didn't have any Insurance as well as no road tax.[:)]

[Maricopa]

[quote user="derf"]

 Maybe it's because they didn't have any Insurance as well as no road tax.[:)]
[/quote]

A reasonable response derf, but I cannot remember there ever being one for lack of road fund licence only, and with so many cases every day (believe me, there were always a lot!), you would expect  a few?

[allanb]

[quote user="Russethouse"]It could be academic for the third party as 'uninsured loss', the body that all insurers pay into, would pay out...[/quote]The third party may get his compensation, but I don't think it's only academic for the policyholder.  If a claim is paid by the local Motor Insurers' Bureau (which I think is what you are referring to) the MIB can probably reclaim the amount from your insurer.  If your insurer finds that you haven't complied with the policy conditions, I think you'll find that your insurer, in turn, will sue you to recover the amount.

Being sued by your insurer is probably no more fun that being sued by the injured party.

[ESB]

Just think of this:  if no Road Tax = invalidated insurance = no insurance = criminal offence, why have Govt infomercials and other promolgators of such information not spelled out to the driving public that this is in fact the case i.e. the basic laws concerning what is necessary to drive legally. 

Here's a bit of the Govt website and again no mention of invalidated insurance - if it is the case why not let people know? Here's the link as well.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/UntaxedVehicle/DG_4022059

Edit :

 

I am sorry but I have had to remove the text as it contravenes the terms of use of this government website *ref : http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/SiteInformation/DG_10015420).

 

You can have links but you can't copy and paste it would seem. Sorry about that.