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Baware if you are driving on UK plates


Bob T
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Hi People

Sorry I do not know how to copy the articale from the news paper, I will post part of it for the doubters.

French News reader John Forkett noticed an increasing number of cars with British number plates, but with French insurance and controle technique stickers, he wrote to ask if there had been a change in the law.

The reply from the French Ministry of transport took some time coming but the answer is that, YES you can now quite legally keep your British or other EU member states registrationn at least until you sell the car.

It goes on a bit, it says there is no link between reg plates and CT, just that the car must have a CT.

I will try to post the bit from the news paper, but read it before condeming it.

 

Colin

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[quote user="ColinE"]

The reply from the French Ministry of transport took some time coming but the answer is that, YES you can now quite legally keep your British or other EU member states registrationn at least until you sell the car.

Colin

[/quote] 

 That is what it says Colin but perhaps not what is meant as the interpretation flies in the face of UK law and French law.  The letter actually says::

 

Objet : immatriculation et contrôle technique des véhicules pour les résidents britanniques

 

L'immatriculation

L'immatriculation est obligatoire au sens de l'article R.322-1 du code de la route pour tout véhicule d'un poids total en charge de plus de 500 kg,  lequel serait mis pour la première fois en circulation.

 

Cette disposition s'applique aux véhicules neufs nouvellement acquis. L'acquisition d'un véhicule d'occasion soumis à immatriculation et immatriculé donne lieu à modification de son immatriculation.

Dans le cas d'une personne résident en France et ressortissante d'un autre État membre, ayant acquis un véhicule dans cet autre État membre, véhicule par ailleurs déjà mis en circulation, l'immatriculation de ce véhicule ne semble pas obligatoire.

 

Le contrôle technique

 

Le contrôle technique est obligatoire selon l'article R.323-1 du code de la route pour la mise en circulation comme pour le maintien en circulation du véhicule. Il est à noter que l'immatriculation du véhicule n'est pas une condition d'applicabilité de l'obligation relative au contrôle technique.

 

Dès lors, le propriétaire d'un véhicule non immatriculé en France mais circulant dans notre pays doit satisfaire aux conditions de contrôle technique fixées par l'article R.323-1 du code de la route.

 

Néanmoins, un véhicule immatriculé dans un Etat membre et utilisé en France peut passer le contrôle technique dans cet autre Etat membre, à condition de pouvoir le prouver à l'occasion de contrôles. En effet, la directive 96/96/CE prévoit la reconnaissance par les autres Etats membres du contrôle technique effectué par l'Etat membre d'immatriculation du véhicule. Ainsi, un véhicule immatriculé en Grande Bretagne qui a passé le contrôle technique dans cet État n'a pas à subir ce contrôle en France. Au contraire, un véhicule immatriculé en Grande Bretagne qui n'aurait pas passé le contrôle technique dans cet Etat doit le passer en France.

 

Assurance :

 

Le code des assurances (article L.211-1, tel que modifié par la loi n°99-505 du 18 juin 1999) prévoit qu'une personne, dont la responsabilité peut être en engagée raison de dommages dans la réalisation desquels un véhicule terrestre à moteur est impliqué, doit souscrire une assurance pour pouvoir faire circuler ce véhicule.

La directive 2005/14/CE, modifiant la directive 72/166/CE prévoit en son article 3 que chaque Etat membre doit prendre toute mesure utile pour que la responsabilité civile relative à la circulation des véhicules ayant leur stationnement habituel sur son territoire soit couverte.

Dès lors, un ressortissant communautaire, résident en France et possédant un véhicule terrestre à moteur, doit souscrire pour celui-ci une assurance responsabilité civile dans son pays d'origine ou en France.

 

Bien cordialement,

 

 Luc VILLENEUVE

Chef du bureau

de la législation économique et domaniale

et du droit communautaire (DGPA/DAJIL/ED4)

We were invited to ask for this letter so I did .I was not told it was not for reproduction, so now you can read it yourself and draw your own conclusions. The confusion throughout the letter over registration and CTs is plain to see ( it actually  says that registration does not seem to be compulsory, an odd phrase one could think) and as I posted above, French News are seeking clarification of what is meant by the immatriculation of a new car.

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There is no mystery about UK regged cars with CT and Insurance stickers.

The CT is a pre-requisite for the re-registration process and it matters not to the Control Technique station whose plates the car carries, be they UK, French or WHY, they are only concerned that it complies with French regulations.

It is also well known that French insurance companies will issue cover for non French registered cars ergo, the insurance sticker. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with this and it is perfectly acceptable on a temporary basis, as in my own case for instance bringing a Belgian registered car from UK to France on French insurance, but told in no uncertain terms that I had to get the re-registration completed as soon as practically possible which I duly did.

I think the problem is that without some imperative to complete the re-registration many Brits decide that these 2 stickers constitute a "done job" and conveniently forget about the rest.

In my opinion the fault lays with those insurance companies who continue to cover these cars year after year. I wonder if there is a flaw in the system whereby once issued nobody checks up on these policies and the renewals are automatically produced and sent out again without anybody checking them ? 

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]...the interpretation flies in the face of UK law and French law. 

[/quote]

I think you're being a bit unfair to M. Villeneuve there.  He was asked to comment on the law that applies in France; I don't see how any of his comments could be said to "fly in the face of UK law".

However, I do see one other possibility here.  We live in the EU, which spends a good deal of its time issuing directives which are supposed to override national law.  Isn't it possible that some EU directive liberalizing the rules on registration may have been correctly quoted by M.Villeneuve, but may not yet have found its way into the Code de la Route and French administrative procedure? 

This is not pure invention on my part.  I know that there has been some discussion in EU circles about the idea that the various national rules on vehicle registration may be an unacceptable impediment to the free movement of EU citizens.  

 

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Allen, his comments, interpretation,  opinion whatever you want to call it, are contrary to the requirements of current UK law in that a car is deemed exported to France if taken there for more than 12 months, which then invalidates its UK registration, as in number plates. There has been a lot of correspondence to the paper about this issue and they are seeking clarification as to what registration/immatriculation actually means.  One correspondent rightly pointed out that "..... it is a legal requirement to advise the DVLA if a vehicle is permanently exported.  Secondly, it is a requirement to notify any change of address but it is not possible to have a French address on a UK vehicle log book.  This being the case, the vehicle is effectively untraceable if the owner does not have a UK address, a bit like having false plates!  From this it follows that in the event of the vehicle being caught by a speed camera, it is not possible to trace the owner by normal means. Hooray you might say, but I’m sure that the Gendarmerie would not take kindly to that fact."

As an aside,  EU Directives do not necessarily override national laws, but the problem with Directives is hat only say what is requitred not how rto achieve it, each member state decides how best to comply. For example, there is an EU Directive that states that work equipment must be regularly inspected.  In the UK in the case of ladders and steps, it is laid down that the inspection  will be no less than weekly, in France and Spain it is when it has broken to see why it broke[:D]  Not strictly true but you get the idea.

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Everyone is talking about U.K. registered vehicles. If they have been exported from the U.K. then just where are they registered? Surely they are in a sort of limbo and not regestered anywhere and if that is the case then how can they be legal anywhere????

Or am I missing something here?[8-)]

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[quote user="Jonzjob"]

Everyone is talking about U.K. registered vehicles. If they have been exported from the U.K. then just where are they registered? Surely they are in a sort of limbo and not regestered anywhere and if that is the case then how can they be legal anywhere????

Or am I missing something here?[8-)]

[/quote]

 

No  Jon, that is exactly the point many have made

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 a bit like having false plates!  From this it follows that in the event of the vehicle being caught by a speed camera, it is not possible to trace the owner by normal means. Hooray you might say, but I’m sure that the Gendarmerie would not take kindly to that fact."

[/quote]

Hows about a hit and run, then trying to find the car? Not many are going to take kindly to that peut etra?

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My guess is that the guy may be referring to the standardisation of registration documents in Europe - when the carte grise changed, and V5 became V5C. There has ben talk in the past about a common European index number system, and that was the first step towards that, though the final system is a long way into the future.

But in any case it is not unknown for officials - even French ones [;-)] - to feed you a bum steer. As far as I know European law still says that a vehicle should be registered and insured in the country where it is kept.

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As pointed out by others, the key point of this article (registration of UK vehicles) appears to be solely based on the ministry response.  However, the ministry official seems to have had difficulty in interpreting the code de la route which says, essentially, that all owners of motor vehicles and trailers wishing to introduce them into circulation for the first time must submit a registration application to their prefecture.   His remark that registration of a foreign vehicle "does not seem to be obligatory" is clearly an expression of opinion (confusion?) rather than a definitive statement of fact. This distinction does not seem to have been recognised by the reporter, and instead, it has been accepted as fact, even though it is clearly contradictory. As a result, the incorrect conclusions were drawn and misleading information has been published.

There is sufficient 'other' legislation which casts doubt on the official's remarks - deregistration through DVLA, EU regulations on cross border tax avoidence, French customs regulations regarding import duties/TVA, the whole convoluted issue of type approval/certificates of conformity (that we all know and love) which are required for compulsory registration, etc, etc - and all of this ought to have been known by the reporter.  Indeed, the French News website itself contains specific guidance to importers of UK registered vehicles, clearly based on that legislation, which suggests that he/she was aware of the above regulations, and therefore ought to have considered making further enquiries.

Even simple common sense makes it difficult to believe that the French government would permit its residents to own and drive unregistered foreign vehicles in France for such an indeterminate period without registering them.  In the absence of formal registration, these vehicles would be essentially uncontrolled and their owners unaccountable. There would be no mechanism in place to regulate taxation or to enforce certain traffic offences or to ensure compliance with mandatory technical regulations. Finally, it is clearly unrealistic to expect that their owners would be exempted from the normal registration fees that the rest of the population of France has to pay.

If this was true, then everyone would be driving foreign registered cars and the French domestic car market would collapse.....

In light of the above, it is hard to understand how this piece managed to get through editorial scrutiny.  The newspaper is now faced with having to seek clarification and are likely to have to issue a total retraction, which will have a serious and lasting impact on its credibility as a reliable source of information. 

To be honest, this would seem to be a big 'egg on face' situation for French News.....

 

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Even simple common sense makes it difficult to believe that the French government would permit its residents to own and drive unregistered foreign vehicles in France for such an indeterminate period without registering them.  In the absence of formal registration, these vehicles would be essentially uncontrolled and their owners unaccountable. There would be no mechanism in place to regulate taxation or to enforce certain traffic offences or to ensure compliance with mandatory technical regulations. Finally, it is clearly unrealistic to expect that their owners would be exempted from the normal registration fees that the rest of the population of France has to pay.

If this was true, then everyone would be driving foreign registered cars and the French domestic car market would collapse.....

[/quote]

Sounds rather like how I feel when I drive my french registered car in the UK[:)]

It is really rather liberating to be free from the modern day phenomena of parking tickets, speed cameras and pay and display parking[:D]

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hi

Surely the saga of uk reged cars driving around france 'illegally' can only be dealt with by the french authorities.  Until they have a will to deal with it, the situation will continue.  May I suggest that people who feel strongly about this, as with other issues, make their feelings felt to the french authorities. 

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It is up to them to notice the issue and take action, not for Brits to take unilateral action by "collaborating".They have no right to appoint themselves as representatives of a mythical community. The French authorities do what needs to be done when it suits them. French people know very well that they can do what they like viv Ã  vis the law until they are caught and if they have deliberately been flouting it, the law will come down very hard. Genuine misunderstanding is usually tolerated.

If a bunch of silly Brits wish to take chances they do so at their own peril, now reinforced apparently by articles gleaned from French statutes. If they are driving without insurance or CT and are caught they will be clobbered, or if they are avoiding the British equivalent, they will eventually have a reckoning.

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The way round all of this is to register your vehicle in Poland. There are dozens of Polish registered vehicles permanently located in the area of Bristol I'm decamped to at the moment.

And Polish insurance companies must offer very good terms for extended stays outside the country of registration 

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Today this happened. I was coming back from shopping and as I cannot park nearby, (due to excess foreign cars as well as neighbour parking scheme, I passed a new'ish Merc with Polish plates. When I parked up I noticed a person nearby on his phone. Looking at the windowscreen there was a notice pasted on the glass. The notice said ' this car has been here for over the period allowed six months without a tax disc it is now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I said to myself 'good at last' at that moment the person on the phone started to say Why good basterd? then the scumbag started shouting abuse. I did not look back, but continued on my way. Its about time these people started to pay their way. If I pay tax ENGLISH PETROL PRICES, 3 types of insurance  and the high rates to go to and fro abroad, I do not see why these people get away with it. The area around here is not just killers, ( re earlier post) but small time too, a few months ago there was a person selling disael out of his estate car parked on the pavement nearby,(Red) Polish, car polish plates. Many of these foreign cars are more unsafe, as well as the lorries on the main road. I have had a problem with this as they knocked me off my bike last year, and did not stop. The notice was in Polish as well as English, I hope they scrap it. rant over.

 

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I thought Twickenham had become the Polish capital since its rapidly becoming  all Polish bars, delicatessens, supermarkets, cafes and even barbershops.  Furthermore, as regular car-boot sale goers we have noticed the huge influx of cars registered in Poland appearing at these events.  

Nevertheless I've not noticed our coppers going out of their way to check up on the validity of their insurances etc but then they are rather too busy filling-in useless paperwork aren't they?     [:@]

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Well if it helps, I visited London over the weekend, more to the point Belsize Park. All the shops are French, they have French clubs, boule dromes, bread shops, cafes etc. The only language spoken is French. There are loads of LHD cars there but none I noticed on French plates. I really felt at home although the one oasis was Morrison's where you can still get an English breakfast with two slices and a pot of tea for £4.95.
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