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Suitable insurance for France and UK


BobDee
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[quote user="BobDee"]

Asking this for a friend currently in the UK. She has a UK registered car taxed and MOT'd, owns a property in France and one in UK. She aims to spend about 5 months a year in UK and seven in France. Currently has french insurance but that only allows 30 days in UK.[/quote]

But is it 7 months all at one time?  If not, it would seem to me to be perfectly legal to drive on UK insurance, tax etc.  Esp if the intention is to remain UK domiciled/ resident etc.  But I wouldn't have thought you should mix the "nationality" of the tax, insurance and MOT.

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[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

The person is a  UK resident and it is illegal under EU law to drive a foreign registered vehicle in your country of residence. Otherwise we could all avoid UK road tax etc by buying a French registered car

[/quote]

So are you saying that if I have a French reg/insured car for use in France at our holiday home, I would not be allowed to take it on trips back to the UK? Never heard that before! Can you point me to the relevant legislation , as this is something I thought might happen occasionally.

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It is an EU directive

Relevant part

TITLE IV TEMPORARY USE OF A VEHICLE

Article 5 General conditions under which tax is not payable when a vehicle is used temporarily in a Member State other than that of registration

1. The provisions of Article 1(2) shall apply in respect of a motor vehicle used temporarily in a Member State, other than the Member State in which it is registered, for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months, provided that:

(a) the person using the vehicle has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary use;

(b) the vehicle is only the subject of private use;

 

So to clarify

You are allowed to use a car for 6 months in a 12 month period in a country other that the country where one has their normal residence..So you can take your French  car anywhere in the EU except the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

It is an EU directive

Relevant part

TITLE IV TEMPORARY USE OF A VEHICLE

Article 5 General conditions under which tax is not payable when a vehicle is used temporarily in a Member State other than that of registration

1. The provisions of Article 1(2) shall apply in respect of a motor vehicle used temporarily in a Member State, other than the Member State in which it is registered, for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months, provided that:

(a) the person using the vehicle has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary use;

(b) the vehicle is only the subject of private use;

 

So to clarify

You are allowed to use a car for 6 months in a 12 month period in a country other that the country where one has their normal residence..So you can take your French  car anywhere in the EU except the UK.

[/quote]

Thank you for that BAF but I am still confused/stupid but is that info related to 'tax' and without knowing what Article 1(2) I'm not sure it relates to what I would like to do(possible)

My possible scenario: I have a holiday home in France and a car fully reg in France. I decide to fly out to my holiday home for two months, I then decide I wish to return to the UK for 1 week using the car, are you saying I can't take it.[blink][:@]

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Look up EU directive 83/182/eec.

Basically this directive outlines what tax is payable/not payable when a car is imported into another country or where a car is temporaraly imported into another EU country.

The part of the directive which I refered to previously ie that you are not allowed to use a vehicle registered in another member state in your country of normal residence is designed to prevent people registering a vehicle in a state with low taxation, or in the case of France no road taxation,and then using it in the country of residence ie the UK. There are various exemptions for cross border workers,car hire firms etc.

The likelyhood of being pulled up for it is something entirely different  

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Talk of tax is rether confusing the issue (as if we need need more of that [:)]) but what BAF says is fundamentally correct so no, as a UK resident you cannot legitimately take your French car to UK although, as I mentioned earlier, Noel Edmunds doesn't seem to be overly concerned with this but I suppose, unlike us mere mortals, he's got enough dough to buy his way out of just about any trouble [:@]

It's the same in France, as a French resident you are not permitted to drive a foreign car so strictly speaking you cannot borrow a UK regged car belonging to a visiting friend for instance.

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]The likelyhood of being pulled up for it is something entirely different[/quote]Agreed and a chance you may choose to take, but when metal meets metal and the questions start........................[:'(]

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[quote user="ErnieY"]Talk of tax is rether confusing the issue (as if we need need more of that [:)]) but what BAF says is fundamentally correct so no, as a UK resident you cannot legitimately take your French car to UK although, as I mentioned earlier, Noel Edmunds doesn't seem to be overly concerned with this but I suppose, unlike us mere mortals, he's got enough dough to buy his way out of just about any trouble [:@]

It's the same in France, as a French resident you are not permitted to drive a foreign car so strictly speaking you cannot borrow a UK regged car belonging to a visiting friend for instance.

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]The likelyhood of being pulled up for it is something entirely different[/quote]Agreed and a chance you may choose to take, but when metal meets metal and the questions start........................[:'(]


[/quote]

Perhaps Noel is a French resident [:)]

Re driving  UK car in France You can drive it as long as the owner of the vehicle is with you

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Just to go back a few steps to correct something...

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

...French and UK law says if the car is in France for more than 6 months, it should be SORNd and registered in France. 

[/quote]

Definitely not - DVLA should be notified, using the section of the registration certificate provided for this purpose (V5C/4), that the vehicle has been exported - this is totally different from SORN.

From the official UK website on SORN: "The vehicle must remain in Great Britain." (link to page here )

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I did pick this up at the time in my post @ 09:00 [;-)]

[quote user="ErnieY"]Tony: I'm surprised you suggest SORNing as it is clearly not appropriate in this case, if the car is to be registered in France it must be exported[/quote]

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Yes people this one will run & run!

 

To the letter of the law those who say the car should be registered in France, then the UK, then France, then the UK, then France, then the UK, then France………………… are right. But in reality if the car is legal in the UK i.e. Tax, Mot, Insurance and the insurance company are aware of the situation and prepared to extend cover, (please ensure you have this in writing,) then there won’t be a problem!

The only time anyone is going to question how long you have been in either country is if you have an accident and the insurance company refuse to pay out. With the correct cover this can’t happen.

I know the law on both sides of the Channel can be an ass, but in the remote circumstance that you did end up in court the key questions would be Practicality and Intention to De-Fraud. Clearly in this situation it is impractical to continually keep re-registering and as the car is fully legal in the UK and you have amended the insurance to cover extended stays in France there is no fraudulent intent. This is quite different from those Brits who drive around on UK plates to avoid a CT and paying out for insurance.

 

 

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The letter of the law is not set aside by considerations of what you describe as 'reality'...

Under the code de la route, driving an unregistered car is an absolute offence.  Having had 'no intent to defraud' is no defence.  The question of practically is also immaterial.

If the original poster wishes to take advantage of the six months visitor rule, then that is the time limit which is set down under law.  If he considers it impractical to comply with that legal timescale, then it is a matter for him whether he decides to accept the risk of prosecution for the sake of practicality.

 

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The european commission appears to disagree with you SD.

From

TAXATION OF CARS TRANSFERREDWITHIN THE

COMMUNITY OR USED REGULARLY ON CROSS-BORDER

JOURNEYS

***

INFORMATION DOCUMENT FROM THE COMMISSION ON THE RIGHTS

AND DUTIES OF THE EUROPEAN CITIZEN

(TAXUD/255/02)

09.09.2002

 

The Directive provides that the exemption may be granted for a

period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in

any 12 months (not necessarily coincident with the calendar year;

Articles 3 and 4(2)). This applies whether the car is used for

private or business purposes.

The Directive does not indicate what kind of proof has to be

brought to show how long the vehicle has remained in the territory

of a given Member State. Although Member States are free to

decide what proof should be brought, the means they choose have

to comply with the legislation on freedom of movement.37 Here it

is appropriate to refer to Article 62 of the EC Treaty which

prohibits Member States from using checking methods which

require the completion of formalities at the Community's internal

borders.38

The Commission considers that the six-month period provided for

in the Directive will generally be sufficiently long to enable

citizens to exercise in full their right of freedom of movement in a

Member State other than the one in which they are normally

resident. It is not unreasonable to suppose that, if a citizen remains

in another Member State for more than six months, this implies a

degree of permanence which allows the Member State in question

to levy the regular road tax and even require registration involving

dues (fees) in connection with the registration of that car.

However, so as to ensure respect for the principle of the free

movement of persons, the condition should be applied reasonably,

guided by common sense and taking account of its aim, which is to

prevent abuses as well as fraud.

I would suggest that in the given circumstances providing that the person is a UK resident and that the vehicle is legally taxed and insured there is no intention to defraud and as per the EU commisssion common sense applies.

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How dare it!

I notice that it mentions this concept of reasonableness and common sense in an information document which, unless it is incorporated in the Directive and enacted into the national law of the applicable member states, then it would appear to be for information rather than forming a legal basis. So if national law says you can stay for up to six months and doesn't specify any conditions of exemption, then that's the time limit.

"I would suggest that in the given circumstances providing that the person is a UK resident and that the vehicle is legally taxed and insured there is no intention to defraud and as per the EU commisssion common sense applies."

Rather than prolong the debate on this already well aired subject, I concur with your comment.

 

 

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Lets put this way,those people that wish to drive around on U.K. plates in France With no road tax or test form(and there is a lot that do) let them get on with it.

The gendarmes and the municipal police are not as daft as these brits think.

So when they get stopped and cry.

  TANT PIS,

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[quote user="Benjamin"]That's all well and good geoff but what happens when the no tax, no MOT and more importantly no insurance Brit runs into you?



[/quote]

 

In my experience it is more likely that it will be a non insured no driving licence Frenchie who will run into you .After all they ,the French ,are, quite suprisingly, in the majority.

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[quote user="Benjamin"]That's all well and good geoff but what happens when the no tax, no MOT and more importantly no insurance Brit runs into you?



[/quote]

Most Brits i see have a french insurance  form in there windscreen.

But sod all else

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Just to gently drag this back to where it all started, we are talking about a completely UK legal car that spends a proportion of its time in France and in the UK. This proportion is a variable that might be seven months in France and  five months in the UK or even the reverse.

The original question was seeking advice on a suitable insurance company that would enable this transition to be a fully legal process. I believe it has been established that six months is the maximum that a car can be in France legally, (Probably 5 months and 29 days).  In practice, given that the car cannot le insured in two countries at the same time and given that at the start of  any year the owner might not know what the plans for the car might be, the solution is probably to spend five months in France, take a months holiday in Spain and then return to the UK.

Now that should be good for another twenty postings.

BobD

 

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[quote user="BobDee"]In practice, given that the car cannot be insured in two countries at the same time...[/quote]

Dumb question, perhaps, but -

Why not?

If the insurance company knows all the facts, and is licenced to do business in both countries?

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[quote user="allanb"]... and is licenced to do business in both countries?
[/quote]

That, I suspect, is the crunch. That possibility is certainly enshrined in EU law. But being licensed means, among other things, contributing to the funds that pays out to innocent victims of the uninsured, which are organised on a country-by-country rather than EU-wide basis. At least according to items on this subject in the papers, there are no companies which are willing and able to contribute to these funds in more than one country. Which is, apparently, why French insurers like AXA, Groupama, etc operate in Britain but through different subsidiary companies.

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