Obtaining a French driving licence

[Sunday Driver]

The Bordereau de Situation (P237) is a fiscal certificate conforming your taxes are paid up to date and it can be obtained free of charge from your local Trésor Public upon production of ID.   As well as being a requirement for naturalisation, it's also needed for debt restructuring and other financial processes.

Whilst it is not a legal requirement for EU citizens applying for an exchange licence, it'd be simpler to pop round to your TP and pick one up rather than argue the toss with your prefecture.

 

[Pickles]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Funnily enough my tax office doesn't know what a P237 is either![/quote]

Did you go to your trésorerie or your centre des impots? Apparently only the trésorerie can issue this form - which affirms that you are up-to-date with your tax payments. (I suspect you've done the same googling that I did).

EDIT: SD got there 30 seconds before I did!

Regards

Pickles

[AnOther]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"] Whilst it is not a legal requirement for EU citizens applying for an exchange licence, it'd be simpler to pop round to your TP and pick one up rather than argue the toss with your prefecture.[/quote]So you've gone from no reason for prefecture staff to be grumpy and refuse to process your carte grise application to 'just go and get whatever they ask for whether it's legally required or not' then [blink]

I rest my case.

 

[Sunday Driver]

In the first case, all of the required documents had been produced, so if they had been correct, then there would have been no reason for the carte grise application to be refused. 

In this case, the prefecture has asked for an additional document over and above those which Cooperlola had provided so a simple solution has been offered.

A distinction that you appear to have missed in your determination to attack me over my considered response to that carte grise issue.....

 

[AnOther]

I'm not attacking you and nor disputing how straightforward it should be but you always make it out to be so whereas this, and other like forums, are littered with 1st hand horror stories of how misinformed, obstructive, and uncooperative government departments and their staff can be.

I have not missed the point in fact that is the point, the rules require ABC and Coops is being asked to provide D, the fact that it may be readily obtainable is not relevent to the principal.

 

[Pickles]

The appropriate section of the relevant legal document (Arrêté du 8 février 1999 relatif aux conditions

d'établissement, de délivrance et de validité du permis de conduire.

NOR: EQUS9900105A) says (my bold):

"1.2. Le dossier qui doit être joint à la demande comprend :

1° La justification de l'état civil du candidat. Les candidats

étrangers doivent être en situation régulière vis-à-vis de la

législation et de la réglementation sur le séjour des étrangers sur le

territoire national. Ils doivent en outre prouver l'existence de leur

résidence normale ou leur qualité d'étudiant pendant une période d'au

moins six mois sur le territoire national.

.... etc"

It is possible that the civil servants in the Sarthe are interpreting "situation reguliere" as extending to ensuring that you're up to date with your taxes. I'm not sure that that was what was meant in the legislation however.

Regards

Pickles

[woolybanana]

If you are a taxpayer, then you are regarded as resident and therefore "en situation régulière etc". The other documents are not proof of that.

[cooperlola]

I've just had this e-mail from the prefecture:

"Pour répondre à votre 1ère question, il est bien indiqué sur le site

internet de la préfecture de la Sarthe, dans la page relative à

l'échange des permis de conduire de l'Union Européenne, qu'il faut

fournir "une pièce prouvant l'identité de l'intéressé". Si vous êtes de

nationalité britannique et mariée, l'agent vous ayant reçu au guichet de

la préfecture vous a alors peut être demandé également de nous fournir

une copie de votre acte de naissance sur lequel figure votre nom de

jeune fille. Nous en avons en effet besoin pour l'établissement du

permis de conduire français et cette mention n'apparaît pas sur les

passeports ou cartes d'identité britanniques.

Quant au formulaire P237 du service fiscal, il n'est effectivement pas

indiqué sur le site internet de la préfecture mais sur le formulaire de

demande d'échange du permis de conduire.

Nous demandons cette pièce comme preuve de votre résidence normale et

effective en France, 1ère condition de recevabilité d'une demande

d'échange. Je peux vous affirmer que ce formulaire P237 existe bien. Si

le service des impôts dont vous relevez ne veut pas vous le fournir,

vous pouvez nous justifier votre résidence normale et effective en

France par tous moyens probants (contrat de travail, avis d'imposition....). Cordialement."

 

Fine, except that her colleague who was on the desk processing my application refused point blank to accept my tax avis instead of the P237!  I just wish these people would sing off the same hymn sheet.  I have to go to town on Monday for a dental appointment so will pop into the Tresorerie to see if they have indeed heard of this form as, as Pickles and SD point out, this seems to be the source others have got them from.  It's a good thing I don't have high blood pressure along with my other little problems.[:-))]

[Loirette]

Coops, I have only just seen this posting, otherwise I would have replied earlier.

In Jan this year my husband applied for a french licence at the Prefecture in Le Mans Sarthe and was told that he needed to provide from P237 (even though I had done exactly the same thing a few months earlier and was seen by the same person).  Anyway, we tried send the application by post without this form but that didn't work either, so I sent an email from the on-line  Impots.gouv.fr website asking if they could send me a copy of form P237.  They responsed almost immediately saying my request had been passed to the relevant dept to deal.  Sure enough within a couple of days the form P237 arrived in the post and we now both have french licences.  So perhaps you could try this route, it might just work

[cooperlola]

Thanks, J.  In fact we went to the tax office yesterday and once I described what I was after they finally came up with the right thing (in spite of still insisting that there was no such thing as a P237 - the number of which is quite clearly printed on the bottom of it!)  Naturally the Prefecture at Le Mans is closed today so that's another whole week lost in this process I'm not back in town until Thursday.  Can you remember how long they took to produce the licence in the end?  Until I get it I can't have the medical and thus can't drive so my hols in the UK are still on hold as I can't carry luggage so the train's out.

See you next week - hopefully it will all be a bit more relaxed than the 24 and I'll get to look around the paddocks a bit.  Assume you 'Vettes will be in the usual spot?[:)]

[cooperlola]

A brief update:

Finally the Prefecture at Le Mans has accepted all my paperwork and submitted it for the exchange.  "You'll get your new license in the next two months, madam."

After which I can apply to join the waiting list for a medical. 

Thanks.  Not.[:@]

[nomoss]

The way I see things, every administration has a sprinkling (or more) of people who lack the knowledge or the self confidence to make the correct decisions. This may be because in the past they have been berated by their "superiors" for making a mistake, rather than being given a calm explanation of what they did wrong. I have witnessed minor officials, having no option but to put up or lose their jobs, being literally screamed at by superiors.

I try always to remember the advice of my Gestora in Spain, a lady very experienced in dealing with bureaucracy, who told me "Don't worry about the logic, there probably is none, just give them what they want, life's easier that way".

Acts 9:5-6 - "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks"

 

[cooperlola]

Others know far more about this than I do but the impression I get is that the average fonctionaire has a job for life and that sacking the average civil servant is well nigh impossible here. Whilst I'd be the first person to defend the worker as opposed to the manager,  I do think it leads to apathy and a lack of any questioning of the processes which, clearly, take forever and cost the nation a fortune (every time I've been to the Prefecture I've taken up this woman's time and stopped her from actually issuing driving licences).

[misplacedperson]

Fonctionnaire working practices, news in English here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7866140/French-civil-servant-lifts-lid-on-five-hours-a-week-culture.html

And the book in French here: http://www.amazon.fr/Absolument-d%C3%A9-bor-d%C3%A9e-comment-mois-Quand-fonctionnaire/dp/2226206027/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278046975&sr=8-1

[Loirette]

Coops

Looking at our paperwork, it took about three weeks to issue a licence.  Not wanting to give you false hope, but yours may come through earlier than two months.

See you next week!

 

[AnOther]

Not to rub it in but OH got hers inside the week and the hardest part of the application was pursuading them that she wanted to change and understood that it was not required or necessary.

And I get taken to task elsewhere for accusing prefectures of being ignorant and obstructive [blink]

I think some must make it up as they go depending on whether or not they like the colour of your 'T' shirt/eyes/hair - you name it, or maybe they run a monthly sweepstake on who can make someone come back the most number of times [:'(]

[mint]

OH's easily took 2 months.  In fact, I was working myself up to ringing up about it (all phone calls to French official bods leave me in a state of powerless but potent frustration), when it arrived.

Obvious tip for anyone changing their licence:  don't forget to take photocopies to carry in the car in case you have to prove that you aren't driving with no licence.

[cooperlola]

Thanks J, I'll assume that ours should take roughly the same amount of time as we use the same prefecture. 

In fairness to madame, she did write urgent on the top of my form but "couldn't promise" it would work.  I don't have a problem with her, per se, but still smart at the fact that the website doesn't outline the paperwork properly and that our department applies regs which are not required elsewhere.  What's that about?  It just wastes all our time (and I won't get into the polution caused by repeated useless trips into town -80ks in all.)

Sweets, I was given a provisional document to say that my licence is in the possession of the Prefecture, for just the scenario you describe.  Not that I can drive as I don't have a French licence so can't have a medical exam to apply to get my right to drive re-instated.[:-))]

[mint]

You'll be back behind the wheel soon, Coops![:)]

Just direct them to your avatar and tell them you need to be driving again tout de suite!  They are a sporty (sporting?) nation and are bound to respond......[;-)]

[cooperlola]

I wouldn't mind but my driving instructor says I'm perfectly OK to drive (he even said I'd have no problem passing a driving test!) and the standard of the driving of most of the ambulanciers I use is seriously frightening.  Tailgating is bad enough when the vehicle in question is behind you - it's even worse when you're in the passenger seat.[:-))]