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Please help.......insurance quandry


opas
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  • 2 weeks later...
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OH dear!  I would hate to be your spouses. I beleive everything my hubby has told me, and guess what? It appears the courts did too...no case to answer on Mr Os side. The police now have to justify their behaviour to their investigation board.
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[quote user="ErnieY"]Not making any suggestions of malfeasance but it might be wise to recollect and remember that everything we've heard about his affair has been exclusively from one (aggrieved) side, and 2nd hand to boot [;-)]

[/quote]

 

It may also be wise to read from the page where It says that he was released on the same document he was arrested on!  That is now a side issue, there are far more important things to take issue with, starting with a police doctors report and video surveylance cameras[blink] and Police internal affairs who have now started thier investigation

 

Those cannot be tampered with .........not by us anyway!

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  • 6 months later...

I had a few months away from the forum and have only just remembered this thread, so, apologies if there is an update in different thread that I haven't read but....

Has the sorry tale come to a successful (or at least acceptable) outcome for Mr O?

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The original incident involving an arrest and detention over a suspected traffic related offence took place ten months ago, so it would be reasonable to have expected a report on the outcome of the investigation by now.  

Have you made any sort of follow up to determine the reason for the delay?

 

 

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It went to local resolution, the police in their report claimed they suspected him of car theft and arrested him, but there was no mention of this to him at the time. He was cautioned and arrested for invalid insurance and that was what was looked at in court. He was not happy with the local resolution.

In the hands of the IPCC who have a two month backlog.

As previously mentioned , all in good time.

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  • 5 months later...
A next to useless update.

IPCC may as well be part of the Police force as they have taken absolutly no notice of Mr Os comments but listened to everything that the two Officers have said.

It appears that one of the officers did a search on the car, which they believed to be stolen ( why ? we don`t know) except that in their letter they said that when they checked out the chassis/vin no it did not match the reg plate. Well of course it did not. It was re reg`d in France over 4 years ago and for some reason was not updated on DVLC records! even though we did everything to the letter.

This has come about now because I insisted that Mr O put a claim in to get back the storage fees for the impound of the car.....to the tune of about 140 quid, and the police have said that money is only given back when insurance is proven to be valid!!!!!! 

Now I am spitting as the car was got back on the same documents as it was seized with.

The Greater Manchester police are saying that we are now at an impasse(their words::not  mine,) in other words at loggerheads;

Next step, I think is to find out why our car was not flagged on the DVLC computer as exported....................though do excuse my ignorance that if someone is stopped driving a French plated vehicle, carrying insurance in French(the officer admitted from the start that he could not understand it as it was written in french) also holding a french driving licence ,passport and ID card;(all bearing the same address) that there could be a smidgen of truth when the guy says he lives in france

Do let me know if I have missed something..............

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Cover up for lies ,lies and more lies on the part of the police. He was originally detained under operation Wolverline, which as previously mentioned by me was to stop cars without insurance: Well he wouldnt hve that if the car had not been shown up as exported would he:

But if you read back to the first few posts from me wondering if my car was going to be crushed or not, he was then informed that his insurance (note, he was arrested for NOT having insurance) was invalid because he was working !!!!! What the hell has car insurance to do with working:

Totally naffed off is an understatement in the extreme as one dept seem to be covering up for the other and the innocent citizen is made out to be guilty of everything,

Next step for the repayment is the small claims court.........if of course that is possible against the police:

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I suggest you might look at the discredited Operation Andover by the Northamptonshire constabulary - not quite the same thing but very closely related, in that it made the assumption that if you are in a foreign registered vehicle that is spotted more than once at six-months-plus intervals you are a criminal and need to be arrested and have your vehicle impounded...

A small claims action has to be involved with an actual financial loss that you need to recover. As you had to pay a fee then a claim would seem to be justified. I'm not sure if such a claim can be instigated by a non-resident of the UK though.

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[quote user="Will"]
A small claims action has to be involved with an actual financial loss that you need to recover. As you had to pay a fee then a claim would seem to be justified. I'm not sure if such a claim can be instigated by a non-resident of the UK though.
[/quote]

One cannot issued small claims against the Crown - including the Police. This is dealt with seperately - as Opas is finding out!

I have had some run-ins with the Police myself. In my experience, a significant proportion of those over the rank of sergeant are corrupt, in one way or another.

 

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[quote user="opas"]IPCC may as well be

part of the Police force as they have taken absolutly no notice of Mr

Os comments but listened to everything that the two Officers have said.[/quote]And you expected something to the contrary?

When it comes to the sworn testimony of 2 police officers versus that of an individual, whom you yourself admitted is no stranger to the back seat of a police car, who do you think is going to be believed?

[quote user="opas"]Next step, I think is to find out why our car was not flagged on the DVLC computer as exported......[/quote]Because AFAIK DVLA do not have records of foreign number issued to exported vehicles, the status can only be determined using the original UK number. Check it yourself HERE

I'm afraid that from my point of view at least, there are too many inconsistencies and contradictions in this whole sage to be able to make a measured judgment of what actually transpired on that day.

e.g.

"has told me he was kicked in the head by one of the coppers who jumped out of the 6 yes six cars that turned up!!!!"

"My husband was then arrested by 2 police"

"At no point was he asked when the car came into the country by the police"

"He has been told he has to produce a copy of his travel document"

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[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="opas"]IPCC may as well be

part of the Police force as they have taken absolutly no notice of Mr

Os comments but listened to everything that the two Officers have said.[/quote]And you expected something to the contrary?

When it comes to the sworn testimony of 2 police officers versus that of an individual, whom you yourself admitted is no stranger to the back seat of a police car, who do you think is going to be believed?

[/quote]

Excuse me, So because someone has previously been stopped whilst driving an HGV for minor offences relating to a unit/tractor , then they are automatically guilty of accusations of car theft. Glad i was never on the roads or walking the streets when you were a beat bobby!

Ishould be careful with your accusations.

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[quote user="AnOther"][

[quote user="opas"]Next step, I think is to find out why our car was not flagged on the DVLC computer as exported......[/quote]Because AFAIK DVLA do not have records of foreign number issued to exported vehicles, the status can only be determined using the original UK number. Check it yourself HERE

I'm afraid that from my point of view at least, there are too many inconsistencies and contradictions in this whole sage to be able to make a measured judgment of what actually transpired on that day.

e.g.

"has told me he was kicked in the head by one of the coppers who jumped out of the 6 yes six cars that turned up!!!!"

"My husband was then arrested by 2 police"

"At no point was he asked when the car came into the country by the police"

"He has been told he has to produce a copy of his travel document"

[/quote]

I will look at that link.

no inconsitencies.

he was stopped by 2 police(traffic) FACT

6 cars did turn up when called (why? he was face down on the floor) FACT

Never asked when the car entered the country FACT (it was myself who informed the custody seargent of this fact when I phoned the custody suite) He was not interested FACT

Travel document was requested by the court and produced FACT

over to you your honor[6]

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[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]That's the real problem with this whole thread Ernie, it's one biased side telling a story when the other equally biased side isn't in a position to have any reply![/quote]

You are so right there, and can we also remember here that there were 2 of them the cover up each others mistakes.

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[quote user="opas"]Excuse me, So because someone has previously been stopped whilst driving an HGV for minor offences relating to a unit/tractor[/quote]That's not what you said though is it ?

You said "Mr O...who has been during his professional life has been in the back of many police cars" which makes him sound like a recidivist who was well known to police, yet another reason for them not to believe his story perhaps ?

Personally I've never once seen the back of a police car and suspect the same probably goes for 99% of others here. Nor was I ever a beat bobby BTW, where on earth did you get that idea from ?

'I should be careful with your accusations' You've lost me there I'm afraid ?

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Professional HGV driver , not a professional Criminal.

HGVs are often subject to random checks.  In years past it was the police that stopped HGVs for the Ministry of Transport as they did not have the power to do so, now I believe it VOSA  who do these checks

He has a clean record and one spent speeding offence ( 56 mph in a 50 zone........national speed limit 60) in 25 years in the same line of work, no other offences whatsoever sir.

I too have never been in the back of a police vehicle, that said I do not drive over 40,000miles in an average year!

Car Insurance is the only offence in the UK where you are presumed guilty , ie taking away of your car if you cannot prove it to the police there and then that you have insurance.........

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[quote user="opas"] What the hell has car insurance to do with working:[/quote]

On this one point I may be able to offer insight. If the car was insured for social and domestic use, then the insurance is not valid if it is used for any work purpose. That work purpose can be a little as taking an alternative route home to drop a work letter in at the post box. By the way, some insurers do not cover commuting either.
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I think you might as well move on and forget about the incident.

If you look at the DVLA website concerning the use of EU registered vehicles in the UK it says

It is the responsibility for the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country. This can be done by producing ferry tickets.

EU vehicles brought into the UK will be allowed to be used freely for six months in any 12-month period without the need to register in the UK, provided the vehicle complies with the requirements of its home country. Where the keeper of the vehicle becomes resident in this country, the vehicle must be immediately registered and licensed in the UK. UK residents are not allowed to use a foreign registered vehicle on UK roads.

 

As the driver was unable / unwilling to show how long the vehicle had been / was going to be in the UK the officers would be entitled to make further enquiries.

 

As the driver was unable/unwilling to give a place of residence that would give reasonable grounds for detaining him whilst those enquiries were carried out.

 

There was no need for the officer to understand, or arrange translation the foreign documents. The suspicion was that the driver was a UK resident illegally driving a foreign registered vehicle. The inability to produce appropriate travel documents combined with any mention of working in the UK, would only heighten those suspicions.

 

I'm afraid flogging a dead horse spring to mind.

 

Just ensure that if he is still coming to the UK to work he always carries a dossier of evidence tickets details of employment etc and adopts an appropriately docile attitude.

 

Don't forget details of this incident will already be on file.

 

PS As far as the excessive number of police involved, if this was an automatic number recognition "trap" , its normal to have over a dozen officers on hand to process cases and/or catch anyone attempting to do a runner!

 

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[quote user="JohnM"]If the car was insured for social and domestic use, then the insurance is not valid if it is used for any work purpose.[/quote]True.  But how would a policeman know whether this restriction applied?  As far as I can see, this information does not appear on the standard green card.

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If you look at the DVLA website concerning the use of EU registered vehicles in the UK it says

It

is the responsibility for the driver to prove how long the vehicle has

been in the country. This can be done by producing ferry tickets.

Which is why I said car/motor insurance is the only offence in the U.K. where you are guilty until proved innocent

 

As

the driver was unable / unwilling to show how long the vehicle had been

/ was going to be in the UK the officers would be entitled to make

further enquiries.

Mr O did give the police officers the insurance certificate the french

import certificate the french log book and the ferry ticket, they were

all in the same place in a folder in the car,and his passport which the

officers also had was issued from Paris.

As

the driver was unable/unwilling to give a place of residence that would

give reasonable grounds for detaining him whilst those enquiries were

carried out.

Once again the car had french plates Mr O has a french ID card which

the officers took from him at the time of his arrest and he gave them a

french address.

 

There

was no need for the officer to understand, or arrange translation the

foreign documents. The suspicion was that the driver was a UK resident

illegally driving a foreign registered vehicle. The inability to

produce appropriate travel documents combined with any mention of

working in the UK, would only heighten those suspicions.

See above,there is no offence of illegally driving a foreign registered

vehicle,one phone call to the MIB would tell the police if the car was

insured or not and the police have access to the immigration records

also.

I'm afraid flogging a dead horse spring to mind.

Thats for the court to say

 

Just

ensure that if he is still coming to the UK to work he always carries

a dossier of evidence tickets details of employment etc and adopts an

appropriately docile attitude.

Sorry

he does not do docile and does not need to do so, he only as to be

civil. He/We always have our documents in the vehicle , as it is French

law and is altogether in one document case.

Don't forget details of this incident will already be on file.

The

Chief Constable of the GMP certainly knows about this and as does Mr m

Meacher MP for Oldham and ACPO, Mr O has nothing to hide , he has not

broken any laws.

 

PS

As far as the excessive number of police involved, if this was an

automatic number recognition "trap" , its normal to have over a dozen

officers on hand to process cases and/or catch anyone attempting to do

a runner!

No, it was the police officer who called for back up.

PS.Mr

O was charged with having no insurance even though the officer did not

know if he had insurance or not. He (the officer) has admitted it as he

could not get hold of the french insurance company to verify if Mr O

had insurance until Monday morning but charged Mr O Saturday afternoon.

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