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Speed trap


fluffy tree
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We were caught in a speed trap yesterday, on a dual carriageway we regularly use. It has varying speed limits which we adhere to, and it is a favourite haunt of the gendarmes. We were on a 110 kmph stretch, and thought we were within the limit, but the officers speedgun showed 113kmph when he stopped us. He explained that we were travelling a touch over the limit, and it seemed like we were just getting a warning, but no, we also got a 45€ fine.

I completely accept that speeding is speeding, and it seems that we were, but:-

* we have a needle type speedo, not digital, so cannot be completely certain within maybe 5mph of our exact speed - so less than 2 mph variance is not apparent

* the speedgun was hand-held, not mounted

so it seems that maybe there should be a minor margin for error, as I believe there is in the UK.

The ticket we received stated that our excess speed was 'less than 20kmph' over the limit - the officer did not record the relevent details exactly.

Lesson learnt - at least we now know that it's best to drive a reasonable amount under the limit...but has anyone else had a similar experience?

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Vehicle speedometers are allowed to over-read by up to 10% but are not allowed to under-read AT ALL (eg actual speed 50Km/h, speedo can show up to 55Km/h BUT NOT LESS THAN 50Km/h) . The car manufacturers TEND to set them towards the upper over-reading limit because that will make their cars seem faster, but it also allows the fitment of a wider range of standard tyre size fitments (this is not really an issue with digital systems). Obviously the accuracy of the speedo will depend on the rolling radius of the wheel/tyre combination, the amount of wear on the tyre and the tyre pressure (wear would tend to reduce the rolling radius and increase the over-reading of the speedo, as would under-inflation).

I don't know the procedure when a hand-held device is used, but when a fixed speed camera is used, the notification shows the speed measured, then the margin of error, and then the speed recorded for the purposes of the fine (vitesse retenue). My suspicion is that you may have been shown the speed "after allowance of margin of error". IIRC, in the last year the margin allowed on both types of speed camera has been reduced - fixed cameras are now at +3% I think.

Unless you have fitted over-sized tyres, if your speedo showed 110, you should have been within the 110 limit. Unless the speed camera was being used incorrectly (and here are various things that CAN affect them), under ideal conditions they can be very accurate - ie you were probably going a little faster than 113 Km/h. For the fixed camera example that I saw, committed by a friend driving our car a few years ago (before the margin of error was changed), I think that the recorded speed was 89 Km/h, the speed limit was 80, the vitesse retenue was 81 and so he was done for being 1 Km/h above the limit. He reckoned that the 89 Km/h was probably more accurate!

If you have a suspicion that your speedo may be inaccurate, borrow a sat nav and on level, straight roads, compare the reading on the sat nav with that on your speedo.

Of course, in all the above, I am making the (perhaps naive) assumption that the Gendarmes were not manipulating the device's output in any way.

Having just had a quick look, it appears that the PV issued MUST show both the speed recorded by the device AND the speed after adjustment for the margin of error. If not, the PV may be contested.

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[quote user="Pickles"]Having just had a quick look, it appears that the PV issued MUST show both the speed recorded by the device AND the speed after adjustment for the margin of error. If not, the PV may be contested.[/quote]

Pickles,

Can you quote a source for this?

Something that would help fluffy tree ([:-))]), should he/she decide to contest...

Thanks [:)]

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The sites that I had a look at were:

http://www.juridiqueauto.com/exces-de-vitesse

http://services.autoplus.fr/juridique/vitesse.html

http://www.infodroit.com/exces-vitesse.php

Which seem to be in agreement and reasonably reliable.

Having also checked regarding the margin of error, it is now 5Km/h up to 100Km/h and 5% thereafter. It hasn't been reduced - there was confusion in 2009 over an announcement which actually concerned the homologation margins for speed detecting devices, not the error to be applied in use.

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[quote user="NormanH"]I don't really consider this sort of thing to be a 'trap'.
It is a check to see if drivers are respecting the legal limits. If they are they won't get caught.
[/quote]

Yeah! Keeps the heat on "accidentogenic road hogs".[;-)]

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According to EU documentation dated May 2010 the formula for speedo accuracy is:

0 ≤ (V 1  – V 2 )  ≤ 0,1 V 2  + 4 km/h

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:120:0040:0048:EN:PDF

In my experience speedo tolerance is nearly always on the high side and on my own modern car it's roughly 8% meaning that a sat nav indicated 110kph equates to a needles width under 120kph on the speedo. With an inaccuracy of that order I would have to be doing an indicated 122kph or so for a true 113kph I believe however that a margin is allowed for with speeding offences and if we say that is 5% then that means to be done for 113kph means being clocked at 118kph with an actual speedo reading of 127kph !

Something seems very wrong then and it can really only be your speedo wildly under reading your speed or the gendarmes error in measuring it.

Incidentally manufacturers have a financial incentive to make their speedos read as high as legally allowed because of course along with speed indication the km's will also be clocking up at the same exaggerated rate meaning that servicing comes round more frequently [;-)]

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...I dunno...didn't take long...just a few posts...

The gendarme was very polite, quite chatty really, and we have no intention of appealing...I was just wondering if it is normal practise for fines to always be issued...

This forum is being ruined by a few regulars...it'll turn into a grumpies chatroom if you're not careful guys!

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In my experience speedo tolerance is nearly always on the high side and on my own modern car it's roughly 8% meaning that a sat nav indicated 110kph equates to a needles width under 120kph on the speedo. With an inaccuracy of that order I would have to be doing an indicated 122kph or so for a true 113kph I believe however that a margin is allowed for with speeding offences and if we say that is 5% then that means to be done for 113kph means being clocked at 118kph with an actual speedo reading of 127kph !

AnOther....very interesting, as our speedo was showing just under 70mph at the time, and were actually just saying that it's impossible to see the kmph when you're driving as they are red on black, and very small!

(ps.... we were paying attention, it's a long straight stretch of dual carriageway, just a couple of other vehicles...and the gendarmes were hiding behind the bushes!)

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I know there were lots of deaths in the olde days but it was fun driving in France when no one cared about speed limits. Still wish all proper motorways had no speed limits on them.

And now I stick to the speed limits, hoping that the speedo is right, it is mind numbingly tiring to drive very slowly on a good road and how people don't drop off I have no idea. Just how do you keep alert? I try all sorts, but I find it very hard.

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[quote user="fluffy tree"]AnOther....very interesting, as our speedo was showing just under 70mph at the time, and were actually just saying that it's impossible to see the kmph when you're driving as they are red on black, and very small![/quote]

Assuming that the Gendarmes were doing everything above board, if the vitesse retenue is 113 Km/h, then as AnO says, with the 5% margin you must have been doing an actual speed of around 74 mph. Our French car and our UK car over-read by 5 Km/h and 3 mph respectively at around that speed, which would give speedo indications around 77 mph in this case. That's a heck of a difference from a speedo indication of "Just under 70mph". I'd seriously think about checking your speedo if you are sure what the reading was.

[quote user="fluffy tree"](ps.... we were paying attention, it's a long straight stretch of dual carriageway, just a couple of other vehicles...and the gendarmes were hiding behind the bushes!)[/quote]

This seems to be standard operating procedure in some areas, in the UK as well as France. I've seen similar hidden speed checks in Germany.

As I mentioned earlier, they give fines for 1 Km/h above the the speed limit (after error margin adjustment), in the belief that the error margin is generous and so the actual excess speed is rather higher. Because of the way that the offences are classified, anything below an excess of  20Km/h falls in the same category.

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[quote user="idun"]how people don't drop off I have no idea. Just how do you keep alert? I try all sorts, but I find it very hard.[/quote]

Anecdotally, many of the accidents on the A9 seem to be down to drivers falling asleep - particularly (but not exclusively) lorry drivers.

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[quote user="fluffy tree"]

...I dunno...didn't take long...just a few posts...

The gendarme was very polite, quite chatty really, and we have no intention of appealing...I was just wondering if it is normal practise for fines to always be issued...

This forum is being ruined by a few regulars...it'll turn into a grumpies chatroom if you're not careful guys!

[/quote]

Sorry if you think that a few regulars are ruining the Forum.

Pickles I think you know about the Sleep Apnoea problems that were recently highlighted by ASF...

It isn't just 'dropping off to sleep'. In many cases people think they have had slept enough but in fact have not slept properly and then suffer 'micro' episodes of falling asleep at the wheel.

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[quote user="NormanH"]Pickles I think you know about the Sleep Apnoea problems that were recently highlighted by ASF...

It isn't just 'dropping off to sleep'. In many cases people think they have had slept enough but in fact have not slept properly and then suffer 'micro' episodes of falling asleep at the wheel.[/quote]

Yes, indeed. As you say, this seems to be the root of many problems. When you see lorries and cars gently drifting across the carriageway before either the driver suddenly "comes to" and corrects the trajectory (which is what happens most of the time), or the vehicle hits a retaining barrier and has an accident, you become rather concerned about the 44 tonnes of death that can hit you if you are broken down on the hard shoulder.

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Not sure what the secret of long distance driving is, maybe there isn't one and you've got the endurance or you haven't, we're all different in other ways so why not that.

For instance, got back from UK just yesterday, 890km from Dunkerque via Lille and Paris, 9.25 hours journey time in total with 8 hours

driving and 1.25 hours stopped, average speed 110kph - and not a speed limit broken, at least

not knowingly or deliberately. OH drove for maybe 2 hours out of that.

Personally I've never had problems with such journeys yet I know people who cannot drive for more than maybe an hour or so at a stretch without being in danger of dropping off and wouldn't even contemplate such a trip without an overnight stop.

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[quote user="AnOther"]Not sure what the secret of long distance driving is, maybe there isn't one and you've got the endurance or you haven't, we're all different in other ways so why not that.

For instance, got back from UK just yesterday, 890km from Dunkerque via Lille and Paris, 9.25 hours journey time in total with 8 hours driving and 1.25 hours stopped, average speed 110kph - and not a speed limit broken, at least not knowingly or deliberately. OH drove for maybe 2 hours out of that.

Personally I've never had problems with such journeys yet I know people who cannot drive for more than maybe an hour or so at a stretch without being in danger of dropping off and wouldn't even contemplate such a trip without an overnight stop.

[/quote]

I can normally drive for hours on end without a break BUT just occassionally, I am tired and always stop, snatch a brief sleep, carry on and if I feel tired will stop again.

Many lorry drivers are under pressure to deliver their load at a particular time irrespective of what the road conditions are or how tired they feel.

Paul

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[quote user="PaulT"]

[quote user="AnOther"]Not sure what the secret of long distance driving is, maybe there isn't one and you've got the endurance or you haven't, we're all different in other ways so why not that.

For instance, got back from UK just yesterday, 890km from Dunkerque via Lille and Paris, 9.25 hours journey time in total with 8 hours driving and 1.25 hours stopped, average speed 110kph - and not a speed limit broken, at least not knowingly or deliberately. OH drove for maybe 2 hours out of that.

Personally I've never had problems with such journeys yet I know people who cannot drive for more than maybe an hour or so at a stretch without being in danger of dropping off and wouldn't even contemplate such a trip without an overnight stop.

[/quote]

I can normally drive for hours on end without a break BUT just occassionally, I am tired and always stop, snatch a brief sleep, carry on and if I feel tired will stop again.

Many lorry drivers are under pressure to deliver their load at a particular time irrespective of what the road conditions are or how tired they feel.

Paul

[/quote]For the couple of (separate) hours my OH does drive on a journey to the UK I usually catch 40 winks and in fact only ask her to take over when I do feel the need for it.

If lorry drivers are observing the rules there should never be any need for them to be driving tired !

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[quote user="fluffy tree"]

...I dunno...didn't take long...just a few posts...

The gendarme was very polite, quite chatty really, and we have no intention of appealing...I was just wondering if it is normal practise for fines to always be issued...

This forum is being ruined by a few regulars...it'll turn into a grumpies chatroom if you're not careful guys!

[/quote]

I have been driving for 57 years and in all that time I have never been fined for exceeding the speed limit.

Forgive my manifest lack of interest in your problem.[6]

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There was a horrific accident near here last week - I drove past the scene about an hour after it happened.

A young man was killed, driving very early morning from Ariège to Pavie in the Gers, to lycée . Swerved across to opposite lane and smashed headon into a car coming south. A lorry driver witness said he wasn't speeding, must have dozed off. Other driver ok (!)

So falling asleep is as dangerous as speeding.

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AnOther, I hate it when that happens to me, the swopping driver when the driver is tired. I find it unreasonable and yet in spite of me feeling like that my husband is quite insistent  that he continues driving when we make our two hour stops, says he he is OK to drive on and then 5 or 6 or 8 hours later, stops and says it's my turn he's tired. Well, at that point I am also exhausted. I drive carefully and last about an hour before I feel the need to stop.

 

Frankly when we do two hours, stop, little leg stretching and swop drivers I can just keep going that for hours and hours and enjoy my driving.

 

I find just being sat being a passenger is tiring. When I used to go back to the UK  by train, I would be exhausted by the time I got there and tired for a day or two afterwards.

 

Maybe some people don't mind not having to drive much, but it is never my choice.

 

Speed in the wrong place can be bad, but I would question where the police have their speed cameras, some roads, are good and wide and there is no need for them to be at 'that' particular place or for the imposed speed limit to be as it is.

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The "10% margin of error" no longer exists in the UK, it was very quietly abolished 4 or 5 yeras ago.

Having seen the furore over the sat nav/early warning thing within France, it's interesting that the speed shown on a sat nav is actually more accurate than the cars speedo.

In the UK you can ask to see the calibration paperwork ( a hand held gun has to be calibrated each day I think). Still, of no matter if under the speed, but sometimes, when it's so close to obviously be an oversight, you do have to wonder!

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