Jump to content

Hi and a few questions....


CJ
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone

I have been lurking around for a while reading and researching and have finally joined, Iv found this site really useful but just have some questions if anyone would be so kind to direct me to the answers I require

We have very recently completed on our French property a very very old farmhouse that has a large barn attached, we will need to completely renovate the whole place with a plan of having our own space in the current house part and turning the barn into a garage / workshop plus 2or 3 gites. We need to have all utilities and fosse installed / connected and will also have a pool but that will be the last job. My question is in regards to planning and timings etc , we will struggle to get to France due to the current situation but would like to get the planning side started , I am aware of some of the rules etc but does anyone have any info on when to start the process of planning and in what order would you recommend for the Work Iv listed and do we just send in 1 planning application for the job as a whole i.e. House reconfigure, change of doors windows, adding doors windows , pool ,fosse ( does that need to be on the plans )?

All advice very welcome

Thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 71
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

From your description it would appear that your project will exceed 150 square metres in floor area.

If that is the case, you will require to submit your planning application through an architect. If I were in your situation, I would consult a local French registered architect for advice regarding the whole.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just so it doesn't come as a nasty surprise, be aware that an interim tax is payable called Taxe d'Aménagement. This can be quite an important figure, usually paid in two installments 12 and 24 months after the deliverance of the permis de construire.

https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F23263

Notaires and Estate agents don't tend to mention it ;-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And please don't think you can manage it from a distance, you need to be on site every day to supervise your maitre d'oeuvre. We are in the middle of having all our lifts refurbished in the complex we live in, a 250,000€ plus contract Otis are the main contractors, supervised by a Maitre D'Oeuvre specialising in lifts. Some of the on site meetings we have had for our building have been just the two of us! Otis management took August off, and the workers do the necessary for a day then go and work on another site.

They started in May (2020) and we have not yet accepted the first lift they finished at the end of that month!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
Thanks everyone your replies are much appreciated

We won't be using an architect as we have the plans sorted but just need to be able to visit to finalise a few things which at the moment is not possible due to covid restrictions, we will continue with our plan for gites but thank you for your advice ( even if a little blunt ) , the plan is my OH to be based on site in a caravan for the most of the work, yes we can have a caravan on the land so this won't be a problem,

Any other useful tips ideas warnings etc are very welcome

Thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to pick up on Weggie's comment. Unless things have changed, this still applies:

En cas de rénovation ou de réhabilitation d'un bâtiment, tous les travaux qui créent une surface de plancher de plus de 20 m² doit faire l'objet d'un permis de construire (Art. L. 421-1 du Code de l'Urbanisme).

Les taxes - diverses et variées - sont, en grande partie, calculées à partir de la surface de planchers des constructions. Il est donc logique d'un point de vue fiscal qu'il soit absolument nécessaire de déclarer toute création significative de surface donc de revenus.

Il est aussi nécessaire de déposer une demande de permis de construire en cas de :

modification du volume du bâtiment,

modification ou de création d'une ouverture,

changement de destination (par exemple : transformer un bâtiment industriel en logement)

Si au moins deux de ces conditions sont remplies, une demande de permis de construire (PC) est nécessaire.

Si la surface créée ajoutée à la surface de plancher existante dépasse 150 m²(hors secteur agricole), le recours à un Architecte sera alors incontournable.

So it the new internal space of your house plus the new gites goes over 150 sq m, its not a choice to have an architect, its a requirement. I had to do it to add an extension on a house before the permis was approved. Just check.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lehaut is right.

We are planing to do an extension to our OH's rural family house.

You do need an architect. There is no debate.

Firstly, you will never get the plans passed. Secondly, if you go ahead without one, someone will tell you to rip it all down.

Budget 6K-10 k euros for the architect. Sounds expensive, but they can save you money in the long term.

Sorry to appear blunt. I am not blunt in real life. I am all nice and cuddly.

Still no to the gite idea. Save your money OP. Just not worth the investment. You will never see that money again. Give the money to me instead.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="CJ"]We won't be using an architect as we have the plans sorted...[/quote]
Define 'sorted'. [:)] If you have already submitted them to the planning office and they've been approved then yes, you're (probably) sorted but as Weegie said early on and le Haut has just said now, it all depends on the area you are renovating / converting.

If that area is over 150²m, an architect who is registered in France (doesn't have to be a French national) needs to submit the plans on your behalf. This isn't optional. And before converting a barn, if (as said above) it's over a certain percentage of the total area, you may need energy studies done which will tell you what you need to do to bring it up to regulations. You can't bung in any old fosse either (at least you can't in Normandy and I doubt Normandy is much different to elsewhere in France but it is France so you never know). Your mairie may have a contracted company who go out to homes to assess what's in place, do soil studies and will recommend type and capacity of fosse to be installed. They'll work with the installer and sign off the work

Bluntly (!) it comes down to this: you know your exact circumstances and plans. From what you've said, it will be a large (and therefore expensive) project. You've given us about 1% of the information - for eg, do you even have a CU for the barn conversion? You said all utilities need to be installed - even water? If you don't already have a CU for the barn you may not get it until water is laid on. This happened to an acquaintance.

In your shoes and with the raft of questions you raised in your first post, I would book an appointment with the mairie - maire or suitable deputy... perhaps even the secretary - who deals with planning issues.

Present your plans, with all the measurements and confirm that all the permissions are in place for your project. Then ask what the recommended (or required) next steps are. Do you submit all plans only to the mairie? Do you need meetings with (iIrc) the officials at the DDE? (local departmental planning office - but I think the name has changed). Who do you need to consult re specifying a fosse installation, etc etc.

Discussions and advice from officialdom is free. Depending on size of project, you may need to engage an architect which is not. Your French may not be good in which case, rather than misunderstand what you're being told, get a translator to go with you. Yes, that's a cost, there, but you've described a large project that will be expensive. Paying fees to get it right now is an investment in the project just as much as a hi-spec double-glazed window is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very good post Catalpa.

Another thing you gotta understand OP, is the rules and regs change every year. I believe they do change again next year.

Only an architect will know/keep up with the changing regs /rules.....because that is their job. What standards do you have to meet.

You have also got to understand taxation....specifically VAT

(TVA) in terms of the work. It changes depending on what you want to do.

Life is a minefield in France.

You really don't need the stress.

If it was easy, every French person would be doing it. The fact that they are not is a warning.

More gîtes/B&B's yogurt pots stuck in a tree type businesses close down every week than any other business.

Just buy a normal house in a normal area and enjoy life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with albf on this one about the gites. It seems that everyone who wants to live here (and especially on those "Place in the Sun" programmes) will convert part of their house or outbuildings into a gite or gites without having done any market research in the first place.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"the plan is my OH to be based on site in a caravan for the most of the work"

I am just wondering how this will fit with post Brexit restrictions on spending time in Schengen, if that will affect you. It doesn't sound like a project that is going to be all done and dusted in less than 90 days ;-) so hopefully you have EU passports or have already secured your residency rights.

EDIT Thinking about it, you must have or you wouldn't be planning gites would you. Or yoghurt stuck pots in trees, or bubbles in the wood, or whatever. I've had immense fun translating really wacky "hébergements insolites" promo material over the years, shame the bottom has fallen out of the tourism translation industry!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't worry ET.

There is plenty on business for you.

I have spotted about 30 ish 'I'm opening a gîte' type threads on different forums this year. All Brits. I don't know about facebook but there must be hundreds more.

One was a chateaux...and they were equally looking for a mortgage. Eek....which they could not get. Nooooo !

The must be about, I dunno...500,000 gîtes, B&B's, hotels, yogurts, sleep in a hedge and embrace nature in France type places.

The boat has sailed with opening gîtes and tourism in France.

Stoooop !
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of my favourites was a tree house that you had to climb up a rope ladder to get to, and they had a pulley mechanism for the staff to hoist your breakfast up to you on a tray every morning. Ingenious. That wasn't a Brit idea either, it was a French business. Mind you it makes more sense now than it did at the time, or maybe they foresaw Covid and social distancing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We really enjoy Bienvenue Chez Nous too.

But I often wonder how these businesses stay afloat. It seems they go on BCN to advertise - because often they've been open only a few months - but they rarely seem to have any great distinguishing feature, and often they're in the country and don't do dinner.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They don't make money. The only people who make money with gîtes are estate agents, Notaires, Leroy Merlin, Ikea and Booking.com. Oh...and B&Q paint department.

Look OP...you can buy one off the shelf..

There are 13,OOO plus to choose from.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/recherche/?category=9&text=gite

I love 'Les Reines du shopping'.

Proper France. LOL.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing is, every gite is different and every gite owner does tthngs differently so I don't think you can really say "I often wonder how these businesses stay afloat". Some do stay afloat and some don't.

I also tend to be skeptical about the mythical rich pickings to be made. But, an English couple set up a brand new gite business from scratch near me in Normandy about 5 years ago. They were comfortably self sufficient without that income and they did it mainly because they were too young to sit around doing nothing and they wanted a challenge to throw themselves into. In their second year they were turning over 20k+ and by the third year they were turning bookings away. So apparently it can still work if you offer the right accommodation in the right location and have the right skills to promote it and keep your guests happy so they post glowing reviews online and come back next year.

Ironically I always felt part of the reason they did so well was that they hadn't set out to make a profit. They had had fun doing the gite up, they regarded the guests more as friends than as customers, and the place gave off good vibes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

EuroTr@sh: "apparently it can still work if you offer the right accommodation in the right location and have the right skills to promote it and keep your guests happy so they post glowing reviews online and come back next year."

I suppose that's my point: it's rare to get all 4 right, and nigh-on impossible if you're a foreigner.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ALBF wrote:

"Expensive hobby LOL.

I would rather learn how to fly."

Well he was ex Forces so I think he'd had enough extreme excitement and close encounters with the hereafter.

I think the idea was that taking on something nice like refurbishing a gite would be therapeutic and help him transition back to civvy life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...