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Van use whilst renovating


redwood
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Does anyone have any experience of/advice on using a van during renovation works. I've taken on a project which should last about 6 months for the big bits and a further 6 to gradually finish off. It looks as though I'll need to cart some lumpy bits around including bringing down some heavy DIY equipment from the UK. A trailer wouldn't be the answer so I thought about an older Transit type vehicle which I would sell at the end of the work.

That leaves me with two choices; either a RHD from the UK or LHD from Germany which I would register in France and sell in France at the end. From what I can see from French adverts I should be able to sell the LHD version at a profit (not huge but would cover some of the costs) but I'm unsure as to the taxes for a second hand van which would be payable in France. I have the details for the "Malus" etc for cars but not vans.

Any help gratefully received.

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for thr tip - it makes the exercise seem worthwhile. I cannot decide whether to buy a UK van and keep the UK registration or a German one and re-register it in France. The idea here would be to sell it when I have finished with it (after 9-12 months) and get back a good chunk of the original cost due to the relatively high price of used vehicles in France. I'd also be able to reduce the removal costs by taking bits down each time I came back to the UK and also buy a lot of serious DIY kit in the UK where it seems to be cheaper then France 

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Redwood, I hope you don't mind if I butt in at this point.

Can you say where in France you are going to be carrying out this project?

I'm asking because, if you had room in the van that you are going to buy [:D], and the timing, etc is also right, I might well ask you to bring some things for me, for which I would, of course, expect to pay you?

Nothing urgent or even in the next few months but, if you were anywhere near me, would it be OK if I kept a note of your PM, email, etc?

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We had a UK Tranny van when we moved here 10 years ago and it was invaluable for bringing stuff from UK and saving on delivery costs for building materials, furniture, etc, bought here.

It was a nuisance (to us) having to return to UK for the MOT each year and eventually to sell it there, and, at the time, the insurance was far more expensive than for a car, as very few UK insurance companies provided van insurance. Think that has now changed though.

We sold it to buy a French car but it would have come in handy loads of times since then as our renovation has taken a lot longer than 12 months. I think you've answered your own question - a French registered van would be a lot more re-saleable than a UK one.

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[quote user="redwood"]I cannot decide whether to buy a UK van and keep the UK registration or a German one and re-register it in France. The idea here would be to sell it when I have finished with it (after 9-12 months) and get back a good chunk of the original cost due to the relatively high price of used vehicles in France[/quote]At the risk of lighting the fuse there are a few flaws in your plan.

Firstly you can only keep a UK regged vehicle in France for 6 months in any 12 so legally you will have no option but to French register it. Note that is 6 in any 12 so leaving the country for your trips back to UK does NOT reset the clock.

Secondly you have a catch 22 because as a UK resident you are not permitted to drive a foreign registered vehicle there so regardless of whether you buy in UK or Germany, once it is French registered you can no longer take it back to the UK anyway !

Thirdly there is the question of insurance. Whilst your UK insurance will cover you fully for the number of days your own company permit per annum, and after that 3rd party, for the use you propose you really should inform them of the situation. It is definitely a material fact which affect their risk which in turn obligates you to disclose and if they only found out following an accident although they would pay out 3rd parties because by omission you had broken the contract they could come back to you to recoup their losses.

Finally, regarding selling on and not withstanding the above, whilst comparative prices are higher in France you cannot expect to command a French price for a UK regged vehicle so, assuming you can sell it at all of course as there is not much of a market for such vehicles, I would not bank on recouping more than maybe 50% your outlay. On a strictly financial base your idea of a German van seems sounder and is definitely more likely to pay you back.

Essentially then it's difficult to see how the idea of French registering anything can work for you nor how you can do what you propose without falling foul of the law on one side of the channel or the other.

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[quote user="AnOther"]  Essentially then it's difficult to see how the idea of French registering anything can work for you nor how you can do what you propose without falling foul of the law on one side of the channel or the other.
[/quote]

Wonderfully joined up, these regulations of the EEC eh?!!

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[quote user="AnOther"]At the risk of lighting the fuse there are a few flaws in your plan.

Firstly you can only keep a UK regged vehicle in France for 6 months in any 12 so legally you will have no option but to French register it. Note that is 6 in any 12 so leaving the country for your trips back to UK does NOT reset the clock.

Secondly you have a catch 22 because as a UK resident you are not permitted to drive a foreign registered vehicle there so regardless of whether you buy in UK or Germany, once it is French registered you can no longer take it back to the UK anyway !

Thirdly there is the question of insurance. Whilst your UK insurance will cover you fully for the number of days your own company permit per annum, and after that 3rd party, for the use you propose you really should inform them of the situation. It is definitely a material fact which affect their risk which in turn obligates you to disclose and if they only found out following an accident although they would pay out 3rd parties because by omission you had broken the contract they could come back to you to recoup their losses.

Finally, regarding selling on and not withstanding the above, whilst comparative prices are higher in France you cannot expect to command a French price for a UK regged vehicle so, assuming you can sell it at all of course as there is not much of a market for such vehicles, I would not bank on recouping more than maybe 50% your outlay. On a strictly financial base your idea of a German van seems sounder and is definitely more likely to pay you back.

Essentially then it's difficult to see how the idea of French registering anything can work for you nor how you can do what you propose without falling foul of the law on one side of the channel or the other.
[/quote]Judging by the number of UK citizens resident in France who are driving UK cars it would appear this law is more honoured in the breach than in the observance
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True Rabbie, but we don't know how many of these people run into trouble when they have an accident and the insurance company won't pay out.

I see several around here, (in one case he's been here 10 years!!) and having spoken to one of the owners and asked him about registration he was convinced that, because the insurance company had accepted his premium payment, all was going to be well.

EDIT: And responding to JustJohn's comment about joined-up regulations, they ARE in fact joined-up, it's the people who flaunt the regulations who are not joined-up. If you're here in France for more than 6 months surely you areno longer a visitor, but a resident, and therefore your vehicle should be registered accordingly?

As ANO says, this is just rekindling a very old and worn out argument (discussion if you prefer [:D] ).

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[quote user="sid"]

responding to JustJohn's comment about joined-up regulations, they ARE in fact joined-up, it's the people who flaunt the regulations who are not joined-up. If you're here in France for more than 6 months surely you are no longer a visitor, but a resident, and therefore your vehicle should be registered accordingly? [/quote]

The law's the law of course, but my point was the principle of being able to move between county's/department in a country is not in doubt; when the vehicle is registered in the EEC, insured etc, is it really a step too far in principle for members of the EEC with a legitimate address in one, to be able to freely move between them?[:P][8-)][:D]

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Free movement isn't affected; you can cross borders on a trip. It is simply a matter of ensuring that your vehicle complies with the registration requirements of the country you live in. They don't all have the same levels of vehicle taxation though. Spend 6 months working on a property here and you become French resident and suddenly you are driving a foreign car/van.

I think one of the examples which was highlighted last time this subject was discussed involved one of the large transport firms which was UK-based but had its fleet registered in Holland (on the EU mainland anyway) but the lorries were running around the UK driven by British drivers, all this in order to take advantage of lower licencing levels abroad, which meant that the UK, in this case, was being deprived of some tax income.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for the input. I've looked at various aspects of being in France and registering/insuring vehicles and have had some good and accurate feed back.

Leaving aside the question of French residency for ow; it is possible to register and insure a car in France - even for a holiday home. The stipulation is then that it must remain in France, I'm assuming trips to other countries are allowed if they are just that - trips. Returning to the UK on a semi-permanent basis would not work however.

It would be a bit of a nightmare with a UK registered vehicle so a German (or other EU country) sourced vehicle would seem the best option as there should be no problem with registration. The idea wasn't to make a huge profit on an eventual resale but simple to come out ahead of the game when adding up all associated costs including some of the removal and being able to source some of the machinery I will need in the UK where it is cheaper. Still many a slip etc so time will tell.

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As a follow on to the last post the local Police here in my part of the UK have been very active on this recently.

I work with a lot of Eastern Europeans and several have been pulled in the last few weeks for being officially UK Resident but driving a foreign registered car. Don’t know what penalties were imposed but the cars have disappeared!

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  • 2 weeks later...
Thanks for the tips. I had received a reply to another - but linked question back in April. I think the post date is 12.4. The reply there was quite comprehensive and shows that it is legal to own and register a French vehicle in France for a second home. The main criteria is that the vehicle is based in France and not taken back to the UK on a permenant basis. I'll check with the authorities when I'm closer to getting stuck  into the work and get back to the Forum with the news then.
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This is an interesting point, Ano. I’m still UK resident,

but keep a French registered car at a house in France and have done for 5 years.

Are you saying that I cannot travel back to the UK in it, at all. If so, I didn’t

realise that. Can you point me to any websites that clarify this.

Forgive the lack of intonation in the text, I'm curious not doubtful!!

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[quote user="cooperlola"]Honest John is good at this kind of thing and cites the relevant statutes which are - as has been pointed out on this forum in the past - regularly flouted.  Fine until you're caught.[/quote]

In this case, he's partly wrong.

We have been here before:

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/1/2315807/ShowPost.aspx#2315807

If

you wade through that thread, you will see that what HJ is quoting is

"the general case": most people are NOT in the happy position of being

able to afford second homes elsewhere and being able to afford to base a

car there. The general case is that the car that

you use on a day-to-day basis should be registered in the country where

you normally live or have permanent residence (and even that may not

necessarily hold for those subject to so-called "transfrontaliere"

rules). However, if you have a second home and you have a car that is

based there and spends most of its time there (and NOT at your principal

residence), then it should be registered there. However it is not allowed for you to use your car that is registered

at your second home as your main car based at your principal residence.

AnOther dug up this bit:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:51998PC0030:EN:HTML 

Article 9 - Permanent use in a Member State other than that of normal residence

"1. Where a person wishes to use a vehicle in a Member State other than

that in which he has his place of normal residence for a period in

excess of that provided for in Article 5, for example on an ongoing

basis in connection with a secondary residence, the Member State in

question shall register such vehicle."

You CAN therefore have a

French-registered car based at a holiday home in France, even if you are

non-resident; in fact, if you have a car that spends more than 6 months

of the year in France (eg because it is based at your holiday home),

then it SHOULD be registered in France. However, because the UK does not give ANY period of grace in which to re-register an imported car, you cannot drive the car in the UK without re-registering it (officially, immediately on entry to the UK!).

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_10014623

which says that:

[quote]UK residents driving non-UK cars in the UK

UK residents are not allowed to use non-UK registered vehicles on UK roads. The only exceptions are:

  • if you work in another EU member state and use an EU-registered

    company car temporarily in the UK for business and private purposes
  • if you lease an EU-registered car and use this temporarily in the UK[/quote]

Note that if you were French resident, with a UK-registered car based at a UK holiday home, then in fact you COULD drive it in France because you would have a month's grace in which to re-register it. Provided the car left the country before the end of the month, you would still be legal.

And then of course there is the proposal referred to here (which probably has not much chance of being enacted in my lifetime):

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/2715563/ShowPost.aspx

which would mean that those of us UK-resident but who have cars based at second homes in other countries would have to re-register/tax/MOT them in the UK and bring them back as necessary to keep the MoT valid.

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Sorry Pickles you are, of course, right.  However, I thought the discussion was - again - about the driving of a French registered vehichle by a UK resident in the UK which, as I think we all conclude, you cannot do except for work/business related purposes.  I clearly misread Honest John because as I read it that was what he was talking about too. 

"You have asked whether a vehicle belonging to a UK keeper, who has a French holiday home (temporary residence) may register the vehicle in France, and use the vehicle to return to the UK for occasional short visits."

 Apologies.[:$]

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Bl***in Nora. What a mither. Think I'll get the bus!

As it happens the French car I bought was from an English bloke living in Geneva, for 30 years, who left the car at an address in the midlands so that he could use it when he came over to fish - done it for nearly 10 years.

As Rabbie said  more honoured in the breach than in the observance.      

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[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="cooperlola"]Honest John is good at this kind of thing and cites the relevant statutes which are - as has been pointed out on this forum in the past - regularly flouted.  Fine until you're caught.[/quote]

In this case, he's partly wrong. [/quote]

I will rephrase my comment: the advice that he has posted on the page referenced is ambiguous. Elsewhere he has provided the full, and clearer, guidance which is in agreement with what I went on to post.

Some people, members of this and other forums, have taken chances on this law for years. Your chances of being stopped and prosecuted for overstaying in France with a UK-registered car seem to be negligible. Your chances of being stopped and prosecuted for driving a foreign-registered car in the UK may be a bit higher (not much), but the cases that have been reported through the forum (2 in all, I think) have been the result of incorrect application of the UK law to non-UK-resident UK citizens legally driving non-UK-registered vehicles in the UK. I haven't taken such a chance because I know how my luck works (ie it doesn't).

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Well, I must say that my instinct if I were the o/p would be to buy a (cheaper) UK reg van and endeavour to limit the time it's in France to less than 6 months which should satisfy all the criteria.  Like you, I just find it easier to comply most of the time - I also don't do guilty very well - I reckon everybody would know the moment I tried to cheat as it would show on my face!

I still have an unregistered horsebox trailer rotting away in my garden because I have never registered it and now don't need it.  I see a few Brits at shows and things who live here and who just tow their dobbins about regardless of the fact that they're behind illegally registered cars with unregisterd trailers.  They have more guts than I do.  If that's the expression I'm looking for.[Www]

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good advice all round. Originally I had thought that the easy answer - practiacally and legally was to buy the van in Germany (prices similar to the UK), register it in France (completely legal), use it for the renovation works and odd trip back to the UK when I could also bring bits down and then, at the end of the renovation phase, sell the French registered van in France. Simples!

Of course it now all falls over due to the narrow minded rules in the UK and there have been stories in the press about checks on vehicles (and we all have to pass throught customs) where the vehicle has been taken by the UK authorities as it was Franch registered but driven by a UK national.

Confusion abounds. Last month's Frfench Property mag had an article from a French insurer - Axa - which states exactly what has been said in this thread; register the vehicle in France as a second home owner, insure it in France AND THEN you can drive it in the UK for up to 90  days per year. Perhaps the expert who wrote that could appear in court when the vehicle has been confiscated.

As some-one commented the chances of being rumbled for the odd couple of days in the UK are slsim but.... what if??

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[quote user="redwood"]Last month's Frfench Property mag had an article from a French insurer - Axa - which states exactly what has been said in this thread; register the vehicle in France as a second home owner, insure it in France AND THEN you can drive it in the UK for up to 90  days per year. Perhaps the expert who wrote that could appear in court when the vehicle has been confiscated.[/quote]

As has been noted before, why should a French insurer know anything about UK vehicle registration laws? Certainly, with Axa insurance it may be fully insured for up to 90 days in the UK ... but that isn't the point! The vehicle COULD be driven in the UK, but just not by a UK resident: ANY foreign resident, so long as they are covered by the insurance, could drive it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Then surely that's the answer? Get your French reg van and when you need to do a trip back to the U.K. take a French resident with you to drive on the other side, just make sure he/she is on the insurance..

All of the assumptions are that you are not a French resident, unless I missed it that is?

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