French Government vote to stop Amazon selling discounted books

[Lehaut]

Came across this in the Grudian

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/french-mps-bill-amazon-discount-books

Have not heard of this. We have bought books for our children from Amazon and also FNAC, who don't appear to be mentioned in the article, perhaps because its a French company?

[woolybanana]

Yet another example of the boy with his finger in the dyke, I am afraid. Listening to a debate on TV last night, I was struck by the superior snootiness and stoopidity of those who feel that trafitional bookshops and publishers have to be protected at all costs in the name of some wierd ideal of access to culture.

FNAC and any other company which sells books through the internet was mentioned by the way.

Yet the prigs ignored the amazing potential of Kindle and other self-publishing platforms.

[dave21478]

And yet there are still lots of people who think that France is not against competition and protecting their own.....

[NormanH]

'Competition' is one of those words that is supposed to provoke a knee-jerk reaction to say 'ah yes that is good, the best deserve to succeed'

I am not sure that Amazon is a good example of 'competition'.

Exploitation of its workers and avoidance of taxes yes.

I am in favour of fair competition, say where two writers compete for readers on the basis of their ability as story tellers...

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="NormanH"]'Competition' is one of those words that is supposed to provoke a knee-jerk reaction to say 'ah yes that is good, the best deserve to succeed'

I am in favour of fair competition, say where two writers compete for readers on the basis of their ability as story tellers...

[/quote]

I had a conversation, once, with a Frenchman about "fair competition". He was all in favour of it.

He cited strawberries from Spain as an example. He said that since Spain was further south than France, it was obvious that the Spanish fruit would be available before the French fruit. Fair competition meant that the Spanish growers should refrain from exporting their strawberries until the French strawberries were available. They should not sell Spanish produce in France before the "superior" French produce was available to give customers a fair choice.

[NickP]

[quote user="NormanH"]'Competition' is one of those words that is supposed to provoke a knee-jerk reaction to say 'ah yes that is good, the best deserve to succeed'
I am not sure that Amazon is a good example of 'competition'.
Exploitation of its workers and avoidance of taxes yes.

I am in favour of fair competition, say where two writers compete for readers on the basis of their ability as story tellers...


[/quote] I understand the competition argument, but could you be kind enough to explain the exploitation of workers , where and who? By the way Tax avoidance is not illegal; although with your knowledge of France you may know differently, so I stand to be corrected.

[woolybanana]

Writers are the ones who are exploited by a publishing industry which offers them a pittance of a return (10% or 15% if they are lucky) whilst publishers live very well than you very much.

And most bookshops are businesses who know bugger all about their stock (there are exceptions)

Writers do compete on their talent as bad writers or uninteresting or those without some bit of magic soon disappear.

Book pricing is the scandal however as publishers set their prices far too high - and that was long before diacounting came along.

I remember some people objecting when cheap labels began selling classical music. It was pure cultural cucumber up the backside. Naxos made music available to the masses as do free concerts etc.

[NormanH]

I was thinking of reports such as these:

http://www.businessinsider.com/brutal-conditions-in-amazons-warehouses-2013-8

and I deliberately used "avoidance" which is legal rather than "evasion" for which there is no evidence.

Avoidance of tax is a matter for Governments to tackle by tightening up the regulations to prevent it.

Isn't that what is being considered here?

[woolybanana]

Norman, as with Ryanair tickets, there is no such thing as a book price, only the price which is placed on it by the publisher which is subject to all sorts of discounts and charges.

Amazon forces discounts very often which publishers seem to be able to bear quite easily. Note that these are not deducted from the author's share.

If Amazon are based in Luxembourg but have depots in France, surely this is like, say Mercedes who make the things in Germany and sell in France. If the French are unhappy, they must get Europe to change the legislation.

And yes, Amazon depots are tough places to work but given the employment options in the Pas de Calais, for example, ot is maybe better to have a bad back for a few hours than to be sitting at home doing nothing.

[Mrs Trellis]

Didn't book prices used to be protected in the UK?  Then supermarkets started selling the most popular titles and many towns lost their independent bookshops, leaving only the giants like Waterstones.

[woolybanana]

Yes, they did, and some book companies have been trying to reintroduce it by the back door with price controls on electronic doors. This is indicated by Amazon next to a book price when the case.

I dont see why bookselling should not move on as did food and furniture selling, for example.

The French are trying to get a man with a red flag to walk in front of Amazon, as they are with Sunday opening.

[NickP]

Thanks for the link Norman very interesting, although it must be said that the writer does seem have an agenda; but then most writers do. The UK has some of the most enormous Amazon warehouses, yet  I have never heard reports of anyone complaining about the conditions. As for tax avoidance; everybody unless they are stupid will do their up most to practise it, some I'm told even pay other people to advise them on it. I'm sure that as all French politicians are so squeaky clean on that subject they will actively pursue anybody else who they think is getting something they aren't. [Www]

[Clair]

When I heard about the decision by the FR government re stopping Amazon from associating books and free delivery to protect the high-street, I thought "That's a bit pointless! Don't most people download books nowadays?"

I bought a paper-book last month.

I'd been unable to find it in digital format and had to get it from Amazon UK for 59p + delivery.

It was only the second time in in 3 years or so that I'd bought a book I could actually touch!

My digital library currently stands at 13331 ebooks in various formats. No delivery charge...

[NormanH]

I don't really understand what an ebook is.

I have often consulted texts on-line in the comfort of my office desk in front of my 27" screen  where I can change the size of the print to suit my eyes,  but I don't need to download them least of all to some tiny hand-held device that would strain my eyes and wrist.

I admit that my reading is more biased towards classic texts and poetry.

For light reading of say detective novels a passed-round paperback in the sun at a café table suits me fine.

If I did wish to buy a more recent book in electronic form I would use Calibre which is free software.

[Hoddy]

NickP there have been plenty of complaints about working conditions in the Amazon warehouse at Rugeley.

Hoddy

[NickP]

[quote user="Hoddy"]NickP there have been plenty of complaints about working conditions in the Amazon warehouse at Rugeley. Hoddy[/quote]

 

Well to honest Hoddy the only complaints I could find was a report in the Daily Heil that some of the population in Rugeley were suffering from blisters on their feet from walking so far around a huge warehouse. Oh hang on I nearly forgot there was another complaint about being fired if your not very good.  I was freelance for forty years and I  found that if you do your job properly you invariably get asked back, therefor I think that three strikes and your out is very generous, so that complaint doesn't hold water with me.

[Lehaut]

"That's a bit pointless! Don't most people download books nowadays?"

It is not always possible. We have just spent over 150 euros on school books for our youngests last year at Lycée. They have to be specific books, year and edition. We use a local shop and if she gets the wrong book, its on her to change it for the correct one. She also sells last years books too, if possible. There are 1500 pupils at the school, quite a large market

[Chiefluvvie]

Yep - yet another French protectionist market!

Go Amazon!!

Chiefluvvie :-)

[Clair]

[quote user="Lehaut"]"That's a bit pointless! Don't most people download books nowadays?"

 It is not always possible. We have just spent over 150 euros on school books for our youngest last year at Lycée. They have to be specific books, year and edition. We use a local shop and if she gets the wrong book, its on her to change it for the correct one. She also sells last years books too, if possible. There are 1500 pupils at the school, quite a large market[/quote]

I understand that. I was merely stating the first thought which came to my mind when I heard about the decision.

I suspect that unless there is a stated need for a specific hard copy like the one you mention, a lot of people now download digital books rather than buy them.

I just can't help being reminded of King Canute at Bosham... [blink]

I used to spend hours in bookshops in the UK, regularly buying new and

second-hand, but that's not something I do in France. I just find the

cost of books really prohibitive. I just don't buy them any more.

On the other hand, I have downloaded around 7000 digital books since buying a Kindle a few months ago.

I cannot get classics in hard copy for free from any bookshop, but I know plenty of websites where they are available for free download, so if I want to read them, I download them.

I also resent tremendously having to pay 15€ for a download which sells for next to nothing in another country...

I was recently sent a digital copy of a book which would have cost me nearly 20€ if I had downloaded it in France (yes, I know it's not an authorised use!)

[KathyF]

"That's a bit pointless! Don't most people download books nowadays?"

I've never downloaded a book in my life, yet I'm an avid reader. Granted I live for most of the year in the UK and borrow almost everything I want to read from our excellent local library service, but I'm still not tempted to pay more for the hire of a downloaded copy of a new book that a real paper copy I can keep or lend or sell again if I want to. Books do furnish a room. :-)

Interestingly even in fiction e-books account for only a half of sales and over all categories between a fifth and a quarter.

http://www.publishingtechnology.com/2013/07/year-on-year-ebook-sales-fall-for-the-first-time-says-nielsen-research/

So no, most people still don't download nowadays.

[mint]

Thank you, KathyF, I now feel emboldened to admit that I, too, have no interest whatsoever in downloading books.

I'll go further, I am not over fond of "gadgetry".

With books, I love to feel them, smell them, turn their pages, shelve them, etc.  I like remembering how or where I got a book, whom I have shared it with, the first occasion I read it (many are treasured and re-read) and keep it on my bedside table.

I don't buy many new books nowadays; most are bought secondhand or inherited.  I always feel justified in buying a book and I think of the hours of pleasure I get from it.  Divide however many hours it takes to read it by the price and I think that, carefully chosen, a book is very good value indeed![:)]  

 

[Clair]

I almost wish I hadn't commented... [:(]

My post was not a judgement, a condemnation or a red rag waved for a debate about tradition against technology.

I love books too. I am an avid reader. Anyone who has met me knows I carry at least one book with me all the time (I carry my Kindle now.)

I collected books for years but I simply cannot afford to buy them any more since moving to France.

I find it easier and definitely cheaper to download them.

I find most of them, even recently published ones (Steven King, Robert Galbraith and others) for free through websites I cannot mention on this forum.

And that is why my first thought was "Don't most people download books?"

PS: As for libraries, there's none worth mentioning around where I live.

[Gardian]

Just returning to Norman's original post, will any of this make much difference to those of us who, from time to time, order a bucketload of books from Amazon?

Its clear that the majority of anything that we order is despatched from (I think) Orleans - that represents the 'popular' fiction and non-fiction that we choose to order. My guess is that they stock the 40 - 50 top British titles there.  Anything on the more specialised side comes from the UK.

So ............. if the French government were ever to shut down Amazon's Fr operation, then all it would mean for us would be potentially higher delivery costs. But you just can't do that, can you? Set aside for a moment the question of tax that ought to be paid where a Company trades, you can't just shut an operation down because they're successfully competing with other national companies, can you ?

Errrr ............... silly me.  C'est la France.   

[Clair]

I have not read anything about "shutting down Amazon's operation in France".

I have read about a law stopping e-shops from shipping bargain books for free (one source here).

[woolybanana]

The new French law says that a book cannot have free postage and the 5% (maximum) discount allowed under the law. It has to be one or the other. It remains to be seen what will happen if said books are dispatched from, say, Luxembourg.

As to book or electronic choice, well, horses for courses. The electronic format is much lighter and easier to use if on the move. Or if the books are cheap and cheerful, or even if they are big thick paperbacks which are difficult to read unless you break their backs. However, when it comes to, say, serious history or something similar, then give me a good hardback anyday.

That being said, I will always buy whichever is the cheaper format.

By the way, potboiler paperbacks cost less that say £4, right down to a few pence on the Kindle, so it is not exactly expensive if you want light reading.

The French are refusing to face reality and trying to make a virtue out of the exception Frrancaise which is in fact just plain backwardness. What a pity that Europe has France at its heart!