Agent Commercial status

[Poolguy]

The lead article in the Main page talked about Agent Commercial as attached to an Immobillier.

 

I've just been doing some digging as I want to do this type of work. To my horror I have it on reasonably reliable advice that the status of agent commercial is officially scrapped.

 

It's impossible now to work in the Immobillier industry unless you have either a Carte Professionalle or a salary from one.

 

Anyone have any more information on this?

 

Andrew

[Will]

Sorry, but I'm not sure which 'main page' you are referring to - is it the 'so you want to become an estate agent' article in Living France magazine - if so, I don't think that refers to the latest confusion regarding agent commercial status that you are obviously aware of. This forum topic, and the links contained within, might help http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?forumid=28&messageid=50613#bm50765.

But beware, it is a very complicated business and the court ruling referred to does nothing to make it any clearer.

[Chouette]

I recently received an update of this situation from a local French immobilier I know.  He said that Agent Commercials who are currently registered and hold a Carte Gris will can continue to work as before and will be able to renew their CG's, but it will not be possible for newcomers.

Bad news for those who hoped to work as an AC in France but haven't yet become registered

[Poolguy]

If that is true its sounds quite unfair. Surley either the status of AC is Terminated or its not.

 

I still can't see how the Government can legislate for a particular profession and not across the board. This situation could not possible occur anywhere else I have worked.

 

I guess that this is why that call this place 'France'.

 

Andrew

 

[Russethouse]

Au contraire as Del boy would say - I think its very fair. The French authorities have decided that they want to phase out this activity, but don't want to take away anyones living (wisely IMHO, they might end up paying benefit instead)

[Boiling a frog]

[quote]If that is true its sounds quite unfair. Surley either the status of AC is Terminated or its not. I still can't see how the Government can legislate for a particular profession and not across the...[/quote]

It is very rare for any new legislation to be retrospective in any democratic country.

[Poolguy]

Retrospective legislation...?

Industry specific Legislation....?

 

not to mention unconstitutional..!!

 

(mutter mutter ...Where is my Civil Code...... )(anyone got Napoleon's number?)

 

I would be interested to hear if this survives a challenge of the Constitutional kind.

 

In UK,Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, and India it would be completely illegal and therefore unsound.

Andrew

[Bobc]

"In UK,Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, and India it would be completely illegal and therefore unsound."

Andrew,

Welcome to France! Like most things relating to other countries regulations or EU directives France does not really give a toss ( is that acceptable on the Forum?).

My wife works as an agent commerciale and has had her carte grise renewed - I first thought that this was a departemental thing, but now know that they are only being renewed for previous holders.

Whether it is fair or not is irrelevant - if this is the decision that the French government has made then you are unlikely to change it.

Given the current depressed state of the French property market (in our area of south-west France - may possibly be different in other areas) wishing to become an agent commerciale is not a route to providing an income to live on.

Stick to wood - far more reliable and good to work with!

Kind regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

 

[Teamedup]

Hendo, I think it was Wellington that had Napoleon's number.

And France is France and in this case, they are phasing these people out rather than kicking folks out of jobs. They aren't really though, are they, if an estate agents needs to hand hold clients, then they will have to do it themselves or employ more staff to do it.

 

[Bobc]

"And France is France and in this case, they are phasing these people out rather than kicking folks out of jobs. They aren't really though, are they, if an estate agents needs to hand hold clients, then they will have to do it themselves or employ more staff to do it."

Phasing these people out - sounds like a comment from Michael Howard

"These people" are not being phased out. Those with existing Cartes Grise can continue for the foreseeable future but new Cartes Grise will not be issued.

This is part of a long-running dispute involving URSSAF.

The only losers will be potential English speaking purchasers of French property. Most French immobiliers cannot justify the cost of having salaried staff on hand to deal with these clients.

As for hand-holding - when you have been in France for a number of years, as you obviously have, it is easy to forget how daunting buying a property in France can be. To have a friendly face to guide you through the legal process, accompany you to the Notaire, etc makes life much easier.

Most decent agents commerciale carry out this work without salary - also taking on new properties, maintaining websites, dealing with e-mail enquiries, phone calls, etc. Their income derives from the commission on sales - less TVA - less social charges, etc.

URSSAF could better spend their time looking at all the property search agents, builders, property maintenance providers, etc, etc, etc, that advertise without Siret numbers in popular journals such as French Property News (an Archant publication).

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Poolguy]

You tell em Bob

 

Sad but true... the AC thing is dead for the like of the unwashed (yourstruely...) hafta get new possie.

 

One little detail I don't understand though.

Does that mean that a commision agent is out of order for all industries or is it just for the Immobilier industry as I suspected. Could I for example get a commission for selling heating systems to folk?????

One rather uninteresting fact (?) ... I suspect, although I don't know for sure... is that My village was the last that Napoleon saw of Mainland France before his extended vacation in St Helene.

I wonder if he remembered it.

About this being 'France'..... we'll naturally I gathered that, I've already had dealings with 'administration'.

About not giving a t*ss... do they do that here anyway???

Thinking thinking thinking.

Andrew

 

[Teamedup]

Hmm, phasing out, well yes, I think that they are doing that. People leave jobs, people die, people retire, and eventually these posts will be no more. And if these people are necessary, then people will be taken on to perform this function.

When we came here I knew five banal words of french, so I do know exactly how difficult it is. Especially as I have no gift for languages what so ever. I'm sure that it makes life 'easier' having one's hand held, but it certainly isn't a necessity either, I know, I've done it.

[Iceni]

Couple of points, firstly we bought our property in France directly, no knowledge of the system, so used a 'chocolate teapot' of a UK solicitor for 'help'. We ended up having to deal with the problems they caused on the day of signing (ie me on the phone to them in the UK asking for missing documents to be faxed ASAP) or we would not have been able to sign. It can be done and I would suggest is not that difficult if we managed it.

Secondly this point, I still can't see how the Government can legislate for a particular profession and not across the board. This situation could not possible occur anywhere else I have worked.

Well, I think the UK's IR35 rules that were brought in originally to specifical hit the IT industry but which have now been extended to locum doctors, teachers, nurses and nannies, domestic help (Butlers...) and others, was targeted legislation for exactly the same reason that the French have brought in their system - to bring IT contract workers into the normal system if they only work for one company. Those who were running real businesses had nothing to fear and IR35 was not applied to them (when reality finally hit and a few cases went to court and the companies won [and a private thanks to the PCG ]). It has changed the way many UK contract workers work and made a very flexible system rather more inflexible and has also not proved to be the money spinner that Mr Brown thought it would.

When did common sense and legislation ever go together in any country?

[Will]

This seems to be something that varies from prefecture to prefecture. I've heard of people in neighbouring départements to us who have been taken on with new contracts as AC working on commission only, no salary, but with modified terms to suit the new requirements, whereas other areas seem to insist that only salaried positions are acceptable.

I believe the problem arose precisely because the terms of Agent Commercial status had become rather different in estate agency from ACs working in other fields of sales.

Di, I remember coming across similar things in England in the 70s when I was working as a contract engineering designer and we nearly fell foul of tax legislation brought in to combat the dreaded 'lump' in the building trades. In the end we were allowed to get paid in full by the agencies and arrange our own tax affairs, but self-employed builders on construction sites had to either have a certificate from the tax office or have - I think - about a third of their money deducted. That was legislation brought in for a particular industry, in very much the same way as the IT rules you mentioned. Then, a lot of builders worked overseas (à la Auf Wiedersehen Pet) and I had a lot of colleagues who went to Germany or France to work on projects like the original Airbus - it wasn't difficult to avoid paying tax altogether if you were clever.

[Moulin]

Taking Will the Conquer’s point on tax, Avoiding / Evading tax is not as difficult or unusual as it sounds. A guy I’ve know since we were apprentices together has worked as a Contract Draftsman throughout Europe, Canada and the US for the last 20+ years and only ever pays tax when he is working in America. Apparently the loophole is basically because he is no longer classified as resident in the UK (only his wife and kids) and as he only ever takes contracts for a maximum of 12 months, this apparently means he doesn’t fill in a tax return anywhere! From what he tell me he is working with hundreds of contractors doing exactly the same.

[Will]

Moulin - that's exactly how it worked 30 years ago. I'm amazed it's still happening.

Let's just hope HM Inspector of Taxes people don't read this forum (though I know of at least one forum user who used to work for the UK inland revenue before taking up an equally disliked, not entirely unconnected with agent commercial, job in France)

Edit: This seems to be something that varies from prefecture to prefecture. I've heard of people in neighbouring départements to us who have been taken on with new contracts as AC working on commission only, no salary, but with modified terms to suit the new requirements, whereas other areas seem to insist that only salaried positions are acceptable.

Since posting the above I now learn that one of those prefectures has backtracked and is apparently insisting on people in the estate agency business either holding the full carte professionelle or being salaried, on the payroll of a CP holder. I understand this applies to existing ACs.

[LynneG]

Hi

I am curerently doing a little research on this AC business as part of an article on Brits in France.

As I understand it, the purpose of the decision was to stop AC's running Immobilier offices whilst their principal (the holder of a carte verte) is merely a nominee.

This is similar to rules implemented in the Uk by the Law society whereby an unqualified person is not allowed to run a solicitor's office without a solicitor being in situe at that location.  It is amazing how many Immobilier's offices that are run by ACs only despite their purporting to be Immobiliers

It will not affect AC Immobilier's (those with a carte gris) from continuing to work with the person on the carte verte provided that that are open in declaring that they are not the Immobilier and run their 'activity' at a seperate address from which they pay the appropriate professional taxes.

My research has shown that despite the recent court decision in the south, the departments of the Orne, Morhiban, Sarthe, Ille de Villaine and Mayenne are all continuing as normal, however, will be taking steps against the 'shell' immobiliers to employ those ACs who run their offices.

Any other info would be gratfully received.

[Poolguy]

Over on that other forum TF they have been twittering like sparrows about the changes. The comments have been hot yesterday and today as Immobilers have been receiving letters revoking renewals of AC carte gris.

link has been sited to explain: http://www.laniac.fr/

What does this really mean: AC.  Its dead for newbies and oldie alike.

Maybe you have another reading..
Andrew

[Teamedup]

The more I think about this, why do estate agents need commercial agents to do their estate agenting job? Simply I do not understand.

[Will]

TU, estate agents employ sales people, mainly to show clients around houses for sale. Sometimes they are salaried employees of the agencies, but often they are self-employed sales people rewarded by being paid through commission rather than a fixed salary. The latter use the title 'agent commercial', and it is the status of these that the court ruling has called into question. I know this is very much an over-simplification, but that's the essence of the problem.

[Teamedup]

I understand why the qualified estate agent employ staff, in fact for us who are joe public, I at least  imagine, that the person I see in the agents office is employed staff a lot of the time rather than the estate agent. For me, the person I see, comes under the general title of using the estate agents.

So where do these, what could end up being benevelant persons,.... ie if they sell nowt the get nowt, come into the equation. Do these people exist in the UK or is it a peculiarly french thing, although I can't say I have ever heard of them apart from on this board.

LOL I thought that the estate agent was already the entrepreneur, so are these peole entre -entre-preneur......... as we all know, the french have no word for this.

[Will]

TU - LOL. This is where it does start to get complicated. A lot of ACs working for agences immobiliers are contracted to bring in a certain number of clients themselves rather than just rely on people walking in off the street or other leads supplied by the agent they work for. Some are even expected to find houses to sell. So they can end up being, in effect, self-contained agencies working from their spare bedrooms, under their principal's carte professionelle. This extreme example is the sort of thing I would imagine the law is trying to prevent. In fact most, if not all, of the 'grannies' are ACs.

We're just glad that Mrs Conq has always been salaried, rather than AC. It must be very difficult for several people we know who are setting themselves up in the business - there's enough hassle involved with setting up in France without having your legality questioned left right and centre.

Commission-only sales people certainly exist in UK, though more often in advertising, home improvements etc than in house sales. UK employers also seem to get away with paying sales people very low salaries and expecting them to make up their money through bonuses for meeting targets; something which French employment law, what with the SMIC and restricted working hours, won't allow. Even so, I'm sure you can be an agent commercial in anything involving sales in France - apart, apparently, from property. APCE and the regional Chambres de Commerce still issue guides on becoming an agent commercial.

[Teamedup]

OK thanks Will.

[LynneG]

Just a quick addendum to Will's comment.

The role of an AC is not merely sales and showing folk around houses as the 'salesman'

It includes the finding of the biens/properties for sale, obtaining a mandate fr sale from the proprietor AND the separate marketing of the biens.

The latter is all important as it is proof of a person working separately to the immobilier and not acting as would an employee.

[Will]

I think the problem is that 'agents commerciaux' exist in many fields, where the agent represents the principal in return for a commission on business generated by the agent. This site officially defines the term: http://www.apce.com/index.php?rubrique_id=11650&tpl_id=106&type_page=I&type_projet=1

Further searches throw up all sorts of examples and further definitions - an AC may be an individual or a company, representing another individual or a larger company. One example I found mentioned one pharmaceutical company in France acting as an AC for a large multi-national. The key seems to be that the AC is responsible for finding his/her own business rather than just acting in the same way as an employee - as Lynne mentions.

This is another definition: http://lexinter.net/JF/agent_commercial.htm

An automatic translation of the above link comes up with the following (interestingly, 'agent commercial' translates as 'sales representative'):

The sales representative is one independent agent, acting with the name and for the account of tradesmen or industrialists in the concluding of contracts with the customers (article L 131-1 of the commercial law)., (COM March 31, 1992).
This intermediary, which negotiates and concludes from the purchase and sale contracts, generally evolves/moves in the distribution of goods of equipment, consumption but also, hiring or of ordering of provision of services.
The sales representative is not bound by an employment contract with the company or the tradesman whom it represents. They are linked by a mandate in professional matter, so the sales representative thus does not have obligation of exclusiveness, not of authorization to ask to represent new mandants. More the share of the agents are multicarte, which allows them broad fields of investigation. They must however subject to the obligation noncompetition.
The sales representative must be registered on a special register by the clerk's