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Property 'Finding' Services


Tonyf
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This has some relevance to the previous thread on Agent Commercials.

Recently there have been more and more 'property finding services' spring up in an attempt to say 'we don't sell houses, we've just find them and refer them on to the Immobilier'.

Sorry to say, for those folks, it's over.  Any work relating to the sale of houses is encompassed in the new law, details of which the Mayenne prefecture distributed to Immobiliers this week.  Special reference was made to property consultancies who profit from the sale of property.  Their referral and or involvement must be declared by the Immobilier, whether or not they are paid a commission by that immobilier or privately by the buyer.  Non-disclosure by the Immobilier will invoke extremely severe penalties.

Worst still for the Immobiliers is that further implications of the new law spell huge problems for those who have a number of offices and only one holder of a carte verte.  Each individual office will have to have a 'carte verte' holder in permanent situ before 1st March 2005 or will have to close, or be closed down by the fraud.

The bigger agencies in our area, such as Zambon, Normandimmo and Nord Ouest Immobilier may have to down size or take on their staff as salaried.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

[quote]This has some relevance to the previous thread on Agent Commercials. Recently there have been more and more 'property finding services' spring up in an attempt to say 'we don't sell houses, we've jus...[/quote]

As one who is just in the process of putting together a similar property finding agency as described, can someone out there clarify what the new law as referred to by Tonyf actually states and means?

'Their referral and or involvement must be declared by the Immobilier, whether or not they are paid a commission by that immobilier or privately by the buyer. Non-disclosure by the Immobilier will invoke extremely severe penalties.'

Disclosure presumably is simply that, how does this add up to property finding agencies being 'over'? As one who will be working solely for the purchaser, and paid solely by them, I am struggling to find any reason why such economic activity can in any way be a problem, assuming,as with any business, that the service is provided honestly, and competently.

Any elucidation greatly received.

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That's thrue but it depends on the status of the person who offer the Relocation service!

For our part, we offer a property hunting service but we are a french regsiter company and we are not an agent commercial at all. That means we don't take any comission from the agent or the owner when the purchase is made. We only charge our service on a flat-fee basis, directly paid by the owner. And as we are not linked with any agent, we offer a exhaustive and independent view of the market and provide this service without inherent conflicts of interest.

Regards

Sabine

www.en-toutes-saisons.com

 

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Hi sabine,

Nice web site, and you may be right as far as your professinal activities are concerned. 

Your definition of 'other personal services' on the greffe can cover a multitude of activitities.  I suppose you could say that the property side of the business is a sort of 'personal shopper' for the house hunter.

I think your activity is similar to that offered by 'Oui Can Help' (referred to on here ad nauseam).  But I am interested to ask what your charges are for property hunting.

It may work, good luck to you if it does.

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No worries Quillan and thanks for your frank and honest message Sabine.

Seems somewhat ironic that Living France, one of the most frequently used mediums by and for, the furtherance of the clandestine market in France, (for which they take a pretty penny) seek to restrict a genuine, legal business.

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[quote]No worries Quillan and thanks for your frank and honest message Sabine. Seems somewhat ironic that Living France, one of the most frequently used mediums by and for, the furtherance of the clandestin...[/quote]

I am sorry you feel this way but accuse LF of knowingly incite clandestine business markets in France is a bit strong. I would strongly recommend that you go back and read the Code of Conduct which you (like every one else) agreed to abide by when you joined this forum. If you feel that the C of C's are unreasonable then please feel free to use and alternative forum.
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I have no complaints about the codes of conduct, I am merely pointing out the irony that Living France police this forum rigorously, which is fair enough to stop folk putting forward their businesses etc. (whether they be legal in France or not)

Yet for a few bob, one can advertise a clandestine, probably uninsured business, with the same group.

Just a thought.  I have no businesses in France or UK but am happy to see the honest commerçants do well.

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I would agree with Tonyf.

In both Living France magazine and particularly French Property News, Archant are happy to carry ads from unregistered businesses in France.

By being unregistered these businesses are able to offer prices well below those of French registered companies.

I have raised this question before, numerous times without receiving any response from Forum Admin or Archant.

As far as advertising in this thread - there have been other threads recently with advertising that the moderators have not removed.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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[quote]I would agree with Tonyf. In both Living France magazine and particularly French Property News, Archant are happy to carry ads from unregistered businesses in France. By being unregistered these bus...[/quote]

"As far as advertising in this thread - there have been other threads recently with advertising that the moderators have not removed."

Where, can you please be specific and post the URL's.

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I have raised this question before, numerous times without receiving any response from Forum Admin or Archant.

I have responded to this question before. It is up to individuals to make the necessary checks about the legitimacy of companies that advertise in any magazine or newspaper, if in doubt ask them directly or check them out beforehand.

If you know of any ads on this website, let the moderators or myself know and we will look into it, sometimes they do get missed but members are good at keeping us informed if they see any.

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"I have responded to this question before. It is up to individuals to make the necessary checks about the legitimacy of companies that advertise in any magazine or newspaper, if in doubt ask them directly or check them out beforehand.

If you know of any ads on this website, let the moderators or myself know and we will look into it, sometimes they do get missed but members are good at keeping us informed if they see any."

Dear James,

Thank you for taking the time to reply - although you are not answering the question.

It is certainly up to individuals to make the necessary checks but this would apply to both registered and unregistered companies.

My question was, as in the past, which you have not reponded to, is why Archant accept advertising from unregistered companies.

It would seem fairly simple as part of the advertising booking to request a Siret number which could be checked. Certainly not 100% but better than the current situation.

Presumably it is just down to advertising revenue.

Kind regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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I think that is absolutely spot on Bob.

My understanding is that 'French News', an often maligned publication, actually ask for a SIRET number from their advertisers as a matter of course.  So, given LF's desire to regulate this forum so vigorously, why don't they protect their redership in the same way.  Simply, it's a question of revenue as you say and therefore DOUBLE STANDARDS.

Sabine, who replied to me by PM, is legal and trying to earn an honest living.  What a shame the her information was delected.  However, she has a web site and it was very interesting.

Oh well, at least you got a reply.

 

 

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This is a 'no advertising site', third party recommendations are allowed. Frankly members seem to prefer it. There is nothing to stop anyone using the pm system or email to contact a poster if they think that they could help in a business capacity. I believe Sabine does use her sig.

As far as Siret numbers are concerned, take a look at a the British press, glossies etc, people advertising goods or services are not obliged to quote VAT numbers nor the type of business they are and if they have paid their tax - it is left to the consumer to judge if the business is genuine etc.

In any case are you not allowed to advertise before you actually start trading ? I think it would be an absolute minefield to start 'vetting' advertisers.

Those advertisers who do quote a siret number rather 'show up' those that don't......
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[quote]I think that is absolutely spot on Bob. My understanding is that 'French News', an often maligned publication, actually ask for a SIRET number from their advertisers as a matter of course. So, given...[/quote]

French News is based in France and as such, is governed by French laws, whereas LF is an English based magazine.

If you look through FN you will also see many UK reg companies plying their trade. You will also see others without any siret no's present. There are simple ways and means of getting past the advertising laws.

There are rules on this forum some you might like some you might not but can you imagine if LF was to open the door to all and sundry to blatantly advertise their wares ? Every question would be bombarded with others offering their wares and services. Many gained their signatures after the last spat and that was proper to my mind but to allow blatant advertising would not improve this site but certainly harm it.

Think of the people that spend a fortune in the magazine, it would put me off advertising if I found lots of others getting freebies on here.

You surprise me Bob, you shout loudest about how angry you get (and yes, fully entitled to) when unregistered businesses are talked about but, by allowing what you think is OK to do, you could well open the floodgates to those very people.

 

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Bit sarky Bob, sod the upper case, my point was that you have got get pretty annoyed on here about people who are unregistered.

You are fully aware that the rules do not apply to English magazines but you think that they should still stop anyone advertising who doesn’t offer them a Siret number and then accuse them of wanting to make profits.

Well yes Bob, that’s the general idea of operating a magazine. They are not the ones who should be checking anyones legality, they have no legal obligation to do so, that should always be the clients job.

You have been here a fair while, I bet you could count on one hand the number of times anyone asks for your credentials etc. I was in the game back in the UK and by the time we got out of it, we were working none stop purely on our name and our record.  Siret numbers, phew you can poke some of the ones I have checked up on. What chance has the newcomer got here when it comes to who is and who isn’t strictly kosher ? Those that can appear legit, one can find out later that the insurance carried was a load of cods. It's as much a lottery here sometimes as anywhere else, UK included.

You quoted this and it was that that made me post. If you allow any legal biz to enter the forum to blatantly advertise, you wont stop the ones you are complaining about in the following statement

I would agree with Tonyf.

In both Living France magazine and particularly French Property News, Archant are happy to carry ads from unregistered businesses in France.By being unregistered these businesses are able to offer prices well below those of French registered companies.

I have answered you, now perhaps you can answer Quillan's question.

As far as advertising in this thread - there have been other threads recently with advertising that the moderators have not removed.

 

 

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In the UK there is no law that says you have to put your Ltd company number in an advert, neither do you have to put a French SIRET number in an advert place in a UK paper or magazine. Indeed there are many people who have LTD company numbers and SIRET numbers who do not put the number in their advert, this does not make anyone illegal or a 'cowboy'.

If you have a complaint with a suspected advert on the forum then as I and Forum Admin has already stated you can, and should, bring it to our attention. Likewise if you have a problem with a company in the LF Magazine in as much as the advert is misleading, breaks any of the UK advertising standards or you personally have recieve bad service then you should write a letter of complaint to the editor.

On the first part of paragraph two above both TonyF and BobC have failed to come up with any proof of their previous remarks and as such it can only me assumed that their allegations are totally untrue, the proof of non proof as it were proves the point.

As I have said before if forum members have a problem with the Code of Conduct and cannot possibly agree with it's contents then their is ut one logical solution, stop using the forum.

So guys, stop whingeing, have a cup of tea and think of answering the original post more intelligently.

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"On the first part of paragraph two above both TonyF and BobC have failed to come up with any proof of their previous remarks and as such it can only me assumed that their allegations are totally untrue, the proof of non proof as it were proves the point."

Chris,

I have already e-mailed James with a couple of examples from recent postings.

Kind regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

 

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Why complain now? If you had a problem you should have mentioned it before like James said. All you are doing is dragging up old stuff to try and justify your comments. But then we all advertise via our tag line, including you, so whats to moan about or is it that you just want people to know you have a SIRET number?
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QUOTE "In the UK there is no law that says you have to put your Ltd company number in an advert, neither do you have to put a French SIRET number in an advert place in a UK paper or magazine."

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the bottom line.  Living France magazine has no legal obligation to ensure that it's advertisers are legal or otherwise in France. 

However, given that the magazine is designed to inform and assist enthusiasts of France and/or property hunters, it chooses to drop short of providing protection.

It takes a second to ad to the advertising form a space for a SIRET number or alternatively run a short disclaimer, advising the reader of the pitfalls of employing clandestine labour.

Better still, why not an informative article on the subject.  but that probably would upset some of the advertisers.

There is no getting away from the hypocrisy of it all and the £££ dictates all.

Just because someone might have a little dig at LF, don't keep saying, find another forum.  I like it here and am sticking around.

Final word.  CHECK OUT SIRET NUMBERS and PROFESSIONAL CREDENTIALS of all workers and estate agents etc or on your head be it.

That wasn't shouted.  It was spoken quietly but with emphasis.

 

 

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