Employing People

[AnnH]

We have an entreprise and are at the stage we need to take on employees.  Is it better to use other registered people (ie on a self employed basis) or are there any incentives to take staff onto the books? Is this better tax wise than being a 'one man band' etc.  We shall be talking to our accountant but all help appreciated.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]We have an entreprise and are at the stage we need to take on employees. Is it better to use other registered people (ie on a self employed basis) or are there any incentives to take staff onto the b...[/quote]

A "self-employed" person will cost you more hourly, but less in social charges (ie none). Given that the actual cost of employing anyone is about 60%, then you would need to negotiate a rate with the worker that meant that it would be cheaper for you (which should be possible, as social charges for the self-employed are slightly lower). The rights of a self-employed worker are not as great as those of an employee. He/she will need to be registered to do what you want them to, so the chances are they will be a competitor, too.

Employing people is expensive, although you can save admin effort by using an agency (which handle all the paperwork, you just make 1 payment/month to them). They are nothing like as expensive as UK agencies.

There are incentives to take some staff onto the books (long-term unemployed, over 55, dead, etc), ask the ASSEDIC or Ch de M or whoever.

As you say, see your accountant!

 

[LesFlamands]

I have a few employees on the books but most my 'employees' are sub contractors who are registered as micro entreprises.

Employment costs are unbelievable. They can only work 35 hours a week and get 5 weeks paid holiday. I make payments to Urssaf, Assedic, caisse conges paye and Pro BTP which amount to about the same as the wages. I know the building trade is supposed the most expensive but it seem to me that the only person who suffers is the employee as wages are insufficient to live on. A French colleague pays one of his 'chef de chantier' with 10 years experience, 1300 euros a month 'brut' so his net pay will be about 12% less. Amazingly, both he and his employee think this is a good wage.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Hello Could you tell me how you arrive at 60% Regards John[/quote]

About 60% of the costs of employing someone are social charges...

Approx 20% employees contributions, 47% employers (of the gross wage). When I had it explained to me, it explains why I can't employ anyone...

 

[Ty Korrigan]

So, just to confirm, if I employed some-one on the SMIC at 8.03 per hour I add 60% and get 12.85 perhour and then there are insurances I expect... what else to add on?

 

[Ty Korrigan]

O.K I shall ask this question to the panel for a bonus point...

Can any-one tell me how much I would have to charge per hour if I took on an employee. The investment in the company is 45k and I want to pay the SMIC to the employee with my wage 50% higher.

[Val_2]

In the building trade we have to charge a minimum of 22€/hour for an unskilled labourer and 30€/hour plus for a skilled man including ourselves. This is set down as a guide by the government to help artisans recover enough money to pay their social charges, anything less than these prices you cannot hope to survive. There are also a lot of extra charges that a boss has to pay out for as well as an employee like Taxe d'Apprentissage and various trade bodies to which you really need to belong to be kept informed. English people have a really hard time trying to understand why workmen in France are more expensive as they have no notion of paying social charges.

[pjm]

Having had a successful renovations company registered in France for over 4yrs, I have to say you are better off employing sub-contractors, than people on the books.  I have employed up to 5 people on the books at one time over the past few years, and the social charges (and increase in insurace cover) were horrendous.  I currently have 2 lads on the books, pay over the SMIC (as I think it is an insult otherwise!) and this is just about workable.  There is no incentive in France for employing labour direct, CDD contracts are near impossible to termiante early and the dismissal proceedure is labourious if you need to sack someone.

[Ty Korrigan]

Hmmn... I am thinking about 'employing' another gardener less skilled/equiped to just cut grass or assist me with jobs like fencing. Good idea the subcontracting...

[AnnH]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I must admit that sub contracting seems the way forward, however we would like someone on a permanent basis. SO a couple of other questions if I may.

 

1) Could John (of the last reply) please put his answer in terms of figures ie if employee earns, you will pay etc etc.  I am normally quite numerate but this is all sending me mad.

 

2) If we used someone who was not skilled as an artisan but was a labourer would they still need to be a micro-entreprise or can they just make a tax declaration at the end of the year, which is what my accountant says I can do if I earn any money outside of the business as long as I am offering a service and not selling.  My husband is registered for a range of trades and can do the work himself but needs someone to clear up, knock out, mix etc