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Your metier...


Ty Korrigan
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Hello Viva and thank you for you support...

Along with Teamup 'who I have crossed swords with in the past' I thank you both as I often feel that I must be wrong or hold a minority opinion.

I am not holy or totaly unscruplious but I am keen to show my French Family my worth and the bank my accounts so I may earn credit in the future.

Many British customer offer me cash which I politely decline in favour of a cheque as I wish to prove a healthy turnover to the bank for future credit.

This year I have a partial exhonoration of my social charges in order to help set me up.      Thank you France...

I have moved here to take my place in a society that I admire. Although it has its problems it is one I believe in. I want to pay my way, although I don't want to pay more than I should, so I see these Travaillers noir as a leech on society and the common good. 

No-one want to pay taxes but paying some-one elses taxes is intolerable.

 

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Is this like the 'doing a foriegner' in the UK?

Well, I think in the UK the IR would want their cut.

The variations on a theme can be thrown up and discussed forever, but Ty has asked a question based on his own particular set of circumstances and that is what I based my reply on.

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lets not miss the point here...

If I quote for work and lose out to a 'ravialler noir'  am I expected to shrug my shoulders or hunt him down, rip off his head before*****ting down his neck....?

You people who say 'oh grassing is so nasty' are obviously either not in business here or the ones working the black.

Once you pay 48% of your profit in social charges you tend to become passionate about protecting your living...

 

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I pay my share of social charges as I work and have a business here too. I am just commenting on the fact that it seems to be accepted that a lot of workers do a little work on the side to supplement their meagre incomes. Or there is an entraide between neighbours/friends. Is this as bad as some UK ex-pqts who have tried to get my business, pay no tax, no cotisations and rely on their E111 despite having lived for 10yrs in France? And also charge double the hourly rate charged by French artisans?

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An interesting thread,

I wonder how many of the replies are from people that actually live and work in France.

I would have to agree totally with Ty Corrigan - in our area of France we are plagued with English people ‘working on the black’

These are not people struggling to make ends meet but people who are working the system to their advantage:

Unregistered or registered as gardeners and carrying out major building work.

Requiring payment in cash or sterling cheques.

Obtaining RMI.

Obtaining assistance with childrens school meals.

They are able to undercut registered French artisans by quoting prices that do not cover any social charges - it most cases they ask their clients to purchase the materials for the work - at 19.6% TVA rather 5.5% which they would pay through a registered artisan.

To answer some of the other replies to this thread:

"Quote: Oh goodness me.. the late night tippler is back with his witty responses... lots of usefull stuff to learned from this one... prehaps his gites are empty...

hi

both gites are full , every one wants a new fosse , of to bed and screw you .......

dave

http://www.lepoirie.com/"

Dave, Before you moved to France I took the time to update you on the possibilities on making a living from making furniture here.

Your website is a bit lacking in detail - if you have two gites established since May and full in October then you are doing very well.

For fosse septique installations - are you registered to do this? - if so then your website should have your Siret No and TVA No.

"What about the travail au noir which is carried out by several ouvriers in their spare time who work for legitimate French entreprise in order to earn a little extra? Is this an equally 'grassable' offence in your opinion?"

You are missing the point - it is accepted that most registered artisans carry out a small amount of extra undeclared work. This is completely different to the English people that are making no attempt to work legally.

All of their work is carried out illegally - at the same time they receive the benefits of registered workers.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

 

 

 

 

 

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Good one bob!

The tone of Daves answers reflects a certain desperation... no-one fills their gites up that quick when judging by his web site his own hovel is far from completion.

In another previous response he quoted 125euros per hour for digger work.... it is 55 here in Brittany rising to 75 in Rennes. Unless he has a very very large digger....

 

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I'm with Ty

In our small hamlet one family hardly talks to another - both born here in the houses they live in and the families make up most of the owners of property in the hamlet. There are two girls of the same age, one to each family - they talk at school and never in the hamlet - and you can guess the reason why from the details in this thread.  Years ago it used to be piles of muck accidently dropped from tractors in the wrong place, now it is just the silent treatment.

I am a visitor and registered worker in France, if a French family feel this strongly regarding this issue I am afraid how they would respond to a foreigner trying the same trick.

At one point in the UK if someone told the IR or Social Services that someone was working on the black they would get a reward - so why should telling the authorities over here be regarded as such a terrible thing.

Cheating seems so very un British

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"You are missing the point - it is accepted that most registered artisans carry out a small amount of extra undeclared work. This is completely different to the English people that are making no attempt to work legally.

All of their work is carried out illegally - at the same time they receive the benefits of registered workers."

I am not missing the point, I completely agree with this. I bought my property from an Brit, who had employed another Brit who works au noir all the time in this area for other Brits to do all the jobs required in the gites. It has since cost me a fortune to get his shoddy (and in some cases dangerous) handiwork re-done correctly by registered artisans. So I agree with Ty. Why should people like that get benefits from fiddling the French and in some cases UK system whilst others officially working pay for them? 

 

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This is all a bit King Canute-ish.  Ty could inform on his rival and the authorities may or may not take action.  What will happen when he finds the next gardener working on the black? And the next and the next? He has the advantage of being able to advertise, he doesn't have to hide round corners whilst he's working but I think it's 50-50 at the moment that in a years time, he'll have enough work to pay the cotisations.  I hope he does but I wouldn't bet money on it.
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Ha! What a cheeky statement! I am doing very well thankyou and the growth of my client base in the first year is very healthy. The number of French clients I have is also a good marker. I have more U.K clients but the French contracts are worth more. My pub is all in French on the van and Bilingual on paper pub. My healthy start is in part due to the fact I am a qualified gardener with a healthy command of French who is a professional and that I am not wholly dependant on hanging on the shirt tails of the ex-pat community. Paying the social charges is not likely to be a problem. I am confident of this.

la bezarderie... What do you do here? if indeed you are here...?

 

 

 

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You have to agree with this man otherwise he gets childish and starts slagging you off ,its getting far too clicky for me this post  .oh well said   top oh to you to those that agree with him you support my little story and I will support yours and if you do not agree we will slag your business off etc  well I will leave you to it  I thought I was childish but you beat me fair and square   No more on this subject from me and I suppose welsh Dave has worked it out as well   and the sensible ones(not me obviously too daft for that) they know better than to get involved, when will I ever learn?

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Clicky?

You are well out of line there. If you bothered to go over old threads you will find that TK and I have had disagreements on here. I agree with him about this though and said so. 

As I am sure that we will deal with future agreements or disagreements like the grown ups we are.

And I wish all legally registered artisans much luck. I have friends in all sorts of trades, they work hard and the government wants it's kilo of flesh relentlessly. It is not easy running a small business here.

ps

I know all about the black economy in France and how it works.

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When I moved to France three years ago, I met an English couple who after 12 years here were moving back to England.  Their reason was that with a fully registered electrical installation business, cotisations and taxes were taking such a chunk of turnover that they just weren't prepared to put up with it anymore. They couldn't grow the company because the cost of taking on more staff was punitive. 

That's the reason that I say you may fail; France isn't a good environment for small businesses and if your business is doing as well as you say, I'm surprised you have time to worry about the bloke down the road cutting lawns on the black.

You have to remember that just because you have a product or service to sell, it doesn't mean everyone has to want to use you.

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[quote]Clicky? You are well out of line there. If you bothered to go over old threads you will find that TK and I have had disagreements on here. I agree with him about this though and said so. As I am su...[/quote]

Oh I don't know, TU, I think we could take clicky to mean that it all clicked with that poster. I don't think anybody would seriously suggest that you and Ty c are cliquey.
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[quote]You have to agree with this man otherwise he gets childish and starts slagging you off ,its getting far too clicky for me this post .oh well said top oh to you to those that agree with him you supp...[/quote]

Don't you mean cliquey? It from obsolete French, meaning "to imitate" after all. Then again, is that really what you meant?

That aside, all registered Artisans, French, British or purple are in an invidious no-win etc etc situation. Let's be honest, we are all forced to do something "black" and we can't do anything about those who work entirely on the black. A bloke from the Hotel des Impots I spoke to suggested that 40% of the French non-governmental economy is "black". Such is life.

 

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Very sorry I have always been a bad speller. but I think we know what I meant  If you go over the post again you will see were I was coming from

To say I condone black work because I say that it is a bit low to grass on some guy doing a little work that is not his main job in order to keep his head afloat in this impossible to work country is nothing short of fantasy

May I ask if you work here in France? asks ty

 Only a bit of building work now and then and sometimes I do some gardening  when I am bored

 

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Hello, I am sorry if I cause offence... So I apologise for getting the backs up of those who are offended by my posts.

Still...

richard... Why not register and make a go of it chap eh?...

I am resolved... I have slept on this issue and have decided that if I 'lose out' to les travaillers noir, then I shall take action.

First I shall speak to 'them' or their employers directly.

Second, I shall report them with photographs to the Marie and Gendarmerie.

Other than that I shall let sleeping dogs lie...

How well they may sleep is their concern...

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richard... Why not register and make a go of it chap eh?...

Not a lot of point because unless I am mistaken you do not need a  siret for working on your own house and i am that busy working on it that it may be a while before I can do anything else 

But good luck on your business everyone need a bit of luck as well as working hard to make a go of any business in france 

Why not just tell him you are watching him and you could tell the authorities if you wanted. Im sure most people would stop working on the side with that black cloud hanging over them

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