UK company trading in France

[Francais]

I have been advised that the easiest way to start trading in France is to use my UK company. However, no one seems to be able to tell me how to go about this. So I have some questions that someone may have some answers for.

 

1 - Is the advice regarding a UK company true and if so, does it need to be a limited company or can it be a sole trader type entity?

2 - If I have a UK VAT number do I also need a SIRET number and if so how do I get it without registering an enetrprise in France?

3 - How do I go about registering for social payments and so on in France, again, without registering an enetrprise in France?

4 - Has anyone any actual experience of doing this?

Thanks

Tim

[Will]

1. Not true, unless on a short-term basis for certain types of work.

2. You need to ask an accountant, but you will not get a SIRET number, which forms the basis of your French TVA number without registering in France.

3. If you carry out business in France you will soon enough be asked for social charges. And you will be expected to register. How and where you register varies - e.g. Chambre de Commerce, Chambre des Metiers, URSSAF, hotel des imports, MSA etc according to the nature and set-up of your business. Again, you need to talk to an accountant.

www.apce.com and www.urssaf.fr will tell you most of what you want to know, there are even some pages in English.

 

[Eslier]

Will has given you good advice.  The advice you have been given is a common misconception and understandable if one looks solely at EU law. Unfortunately the French laws covering this sort of thing are quite complex and the safest thing is to get the advice of a French accountant. 

Although particular circumstances can differ, it is most likely that you will find it far easier simply to setup a new entreprise in France if this is where you will be living and conducting your business from.  If you operate under  your uk company then you  would most likely still have to register a branch company of your business in France so you will have the same commitments in France and still have the uk side to cope with too.

[tj]

Hi

It also depends on the nature of your business, forget any trades, building, plumbing, carpentry, tiling , electrics etc,... not allowed as I have been informed by Chambre de Metiers.

[booboo]

Hi,

How about contacting the FRANCO BRITISH CHAMBER OF COMMERCE in France ? Website: www.francobritishchamber.com

I believe amongst other things, that they are there to help UK companies settle in France. Could be worth a try!

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="booboo"]

Hi,

How about contacting the FRANCO BRITISH CHAMBER OF COMMERCE in France ? Website: www.francobritishchamber.com

I believe amongst other things, that they are there to help UK companies settle in France. Could be worth a try!

[/quote]

I can't see them being able to rewrite French law somehow...

 

[Iceni]

I agree with all of the above, we gave up our UK company when we found we would need to have a French satelite office as well. It was really not very difficult and I have worked over here for over 2 years with no problems.

France is France and ever more will be. The law is the law unless the population does not agree with it, then they strike and then the laws are changed - I think that is called a peoples democracy.

Talk to an accountant - ours was very helpful if expensive. Not many hoops to jump through.

[Owens88]

As ever I raise a question whether there is a difference between selling to France and trading in France. I think so as I have sold filters to French car manufacturers and grinding wheel to french diy chains without a satellite office.

So then the next question is if selling to France from a UK company with uk vat registration and sales office (telephone and all contact details) is ok then at what stage does it matter where one of the employees lives ? (As long as they are working from that UK office).

There are people on this forum who 'habite' France at least part-time but work all over the world. I don't know where their tax domicile is though, and does that matter in the definition above ?.

However if you mean to trade with French local contact points etc. then most suggestions (i.,e forum comments) say there should be a local office and therefore a satellite or complete French company registration. And why not ?

 

 

 

 

[hastobe]

It depends whether you have a 'permanent establishment' (PE) within the

terms of the French : UK double tax treaty.  You will have a PE if

you have an office or have someone (e.g. employee / agent ) in France

who has the authority to conclude contracts (i.e. agree prices take

orders etc.  In addition a construction project (in France) which lasts more

than 12 months will give rise to PE.  If a UK company has a PE in

France then the PE is a treated as a French branch for tax purposes -

i.e. will have to file a French tax return, pay French business tax etc

etc.  The profits of this branch are also part of the UK company's

profits for UK business tax purposes and so will be subject to UK

corporation tax - subject to a reduction for any French tax paid by the

French PE.

Hope that makes sense!

Hastobe

[Will]

Tax issues are relatively simple - though company taxation can complicate things. Where it gets really complicated, and costly, is establishing where employees, or owners/directors, contribute to the social security system. It could be argued that it is better to belong to the French system, as the French health system is supposedly so good. However, being at the top of WHO's league table comes at a price, and for economic reasons it is far better if you can pay social charges elsewhere. Here the main consideration is where you live (i.e. where your main home is), and secondly where you carry out your work. In order to collect their dues in this respect the French authorities insist on people employed in France, other than on a temporary basis, being employed by a French company - hence the requirement to set up a subsidiary if your company is in Britain and you are in France. Booklet SA29 for the UK's DWP is a good place to start, and the French Chamber of Commerce in London can provide plenty of useful and authoritative advice.

[Iceni]

The simple, general rule is that you are initially liable for tax etc based on where yr bum is parked while you earn yr crust (as explained by HMIT). Of course there are exceptions and added complications.

But pls remember that tax is France is not the problem, it is soc sec and AFAIK double taxation treaties only cover tax.

John

not

 

[hastobe]

[quote user="Iceni"]

AFAIK double taxation treaties only cover tax.

[/quote]

That's correct. The EC Treaty rules apply in respect of social security contributions for EEA individuals working in other EEA countries

This may give you more info: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nic/work/ee-area.htm.  (Btw - there is a 12 month cut off so if you are currently UK resident and are likely to working in France (for example) for only twelve months then NI would continue to be payable in the UK. )

Hastobe

[Owens88]

[quote user="hastobe"]It depends whether you have a 'permanent establishment' (PE) within the terms of the French : UK double tax treaty.  You will have a PE if you have an office or have someone (e.g. employee / agent ) in France who has the authority to conclude contracts (i.e. agree prices take orders etc.  ..

Hope that makes sense!

Hastobe
[/quote]

Thanks

That is the clearest explanation I have seen on this forum.

 

So, for example, if a UK business sells it's products/services in France from Engand, it deosn't matter where its workers are sleeping and living... Pragues, Paris or Poole.  ???

 

[hastobe]

[quote user="Owens88"]

So, for example, if a UK business sells it's products/services in France from Engand, it deosn't matter where its workers are sleeping and living... Pragues, Paris or Poole.  ???

[/quote]

Ignoring things like VAT and Customs (yuck!!)  - yes - exactly that - you have customers that are outside the UK but your business is based (and so your profits are earned) in the UK.

Hastobe

[Will]

In that case the company is taxed in Britain, but any employees or directors who live and work in France will have to pay their personal tax - and, more significantly, social security contributions - in France. The only way a regularly working French resident can escape French social security contributions is to actually carry out all of his/her work in another country.