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workers wanted..


montagrier
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[quote user="micky.p."]

well i never,what a carry on , all i want is a job.

 

[/quote]

Sorry micky p - but if you want this job then you must show proof that you have the 'builders bum' syndrome. 

I know that Ron would agree that I have just made a very important contribution to this very informative thread. (Serious face smiley)

Funny 'photo of a builder with his bum hanging out' deleted[:)]

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Many French builders in our area work a system where they open an account on your behalf at the local builder’s merchant and put everything they buy on it and then have the bill sent directly to you. They then only charge labour under the micro BIC system and providing they don't earn more than 78,000 Euro's a year it's not actually illegal but it could be said a nice bit of tax avoidance.

[/quote]

It's 27.000€/year, labour only - difficult, but not impossible to survive on (once you have paid 47% cotistations!). Add a little "black" (& who doesn't?) and most manage, for a couple of years, at least.

 

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[quote user="Deimos"]Quillan wrote: "As someone else pointed out if they only renovate then there is no longer a reduced TVA rate (except for the roof I believe) so in a way its a bit pointless discussing that part."

I thought the 5.5% TVA had continued for renovation work. Have I missed something for does renovation now come in at the full rate ?

Ian[/quote]

You're right, Ian, the 5.5% TVA rate still applies to renovation work by professionals on habitable buildings and extensions to the same (up to a point).

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[quote user="nicktrollope"][quote user="Quillan"]

Many French builders in our area work a system where they open an

account on your behalf at the local builder’s merchant and put

everything they buy on it and then have the bill sent directly to you.

They then only charge labour under the micro BIC system and providing

they don't earn more than 78,000 Euro's a year it's not actually illegal but it could be said a nice bit of tax avoidance.

[/quote]

It's 27.000€/year, labour only - difficult, but not impossible to

survive on (once you have paid 47% cotistations!). Add a little "black"

(& who doesn't?) and most manage, for a couple of years, at least.

[/quote]

Nick is quite right, Quillan is mixing it up with his own trade. Not

good to see bad quotes though, it can become another urban legend and

the whisperers will see it is gospel if they see it in print on a Forum

with the name Living France.

I know of a few who are/have been on the this regime and by their own admission, no way can it work for

long as the only income. Put a couple of kids in the picture, a nice

house, all the annual ex's that go for a family and maximum take home

of around 14,000 euros won't go too far for too long. Sorry but black

simply has to figure..........still at least one is registered that

way, it's a start !!

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[quote user="nicktrollope"]

It's 27.000€/year, labour only - difficult, but not impossible to survive on (once you have paid 47% cotistations!). Add a little "black" (& who doesn't?) and most manage, for a couple of years, at least.

[/quote]

Cotisations on 27000 would be around 5000 euros, no tax so i think 22000 is not so bad .

 

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Time and time again when the subject of builders and in particular English builders working in France comes up in this forum (not that they are particularly any better or worse than any other nationality) the legitimate builders always say we should check siret numbers and insurance. Get a proper devis and make sure it’s signed properly and to tell the builder that extras will only be paid for if asked for in writing and signed by both parties and of course make sure they are properly TVA registered for the trades they work under.

It is not the fault of the client that the internet siret number checking system only gives one trade. I like many am totally unaware of this. If you look at this from a clients point of view we are told by qualified, professional and fully registered builders that anything that looks dodgy to leave well alone (I am not suggesting that these particular builders are dodgy) . As a prospective client if I have one guy that tells me you can have more than one trade attached to one siret number (after seeing only one on the internet) do I take his word for it or do I say hang on after all that’s been said perhaps I need to tread a bit more carefully and check further or do I think that it’s not worth the time finding out and move on to the next builder who appears to meet all my requirements. It seems that builders tell us to check and when we do they tell us the information is not correct so who should we believe. Goal posts moving and all that.

I suspect these two guys are fully legitimate but what has got my goat (and reading through the posts it would seem a couple of others) is their attitude. It’s the comments like ‘small mindedness, people spend too long here [on the forum], how we do this and stay within the law is our business, if you have something constructive to say then do so, otherwise shut the f—k up’, all this in the space of  7 posts.  Personally I would have taken the opportunity to explain with the hope it would lead to more work, it seemed a golden opportunity to do some positive PR.

It would seem however that I am wrong in two areas (TVA on renovations and ceiling for labour on a micro BIC) for which I apologise but in my defence its only what I have experienced with my (French) builders and repeating what others have said both in this thread and others on the forum.

Cassis said that you do get 5.5% on renovations up to a point. Can I ask, to clarify for others, what that 'point' is?

Is it true that the limit for TVA is 27k Euros per year after which you MUST register? Would this not mean that if you work to the limit of your micro BIC you must register and therefore you must charge TVA on your labour? I ask because I don't know if this is true.

I seem remember a thread about people working on the black early in the year and some people got a bit ‘excited’ about the fact that it’s what you do to get started and if it works then register. The reason for this was the high cotistations. Its nice to see, as somebody else said, that these two appear to be doing things correctly. I still have the zero rated TVA problem I am afraid, I just don’t see how the whole lot (labour and materials) can be zero rated. Perhaps somebody, anyone, would like to explain.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Is it true that the limit for TVA is 27k Euros per year after which you MUST register? Would this not mean that if you work to the limit of your micro BIC you must register and therefore you must charge TVA on your labour? I ask because I don't know if this is true.

[/quote]

 

If you provide services the limit is 27000, if you are in sales the limit is 76000, and there is no reason why a company cannot be registered for both, giving them a total limit before TVA is payable, or chargeable of 76000 euros.

I'm not quite sure what your point is about zero rated, if you are referring to the above then it is not a zero rate situation, its just that you dont need to register for TVA until you reach the limits, so therefore you do not have to charge TVA on your goods and services.

You will obviously pay TVA on purchases and not be able to claim it back, but its a swings and roundabouts scenario!

 

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Cassis said that you do get 5.5% on renovations up to a point. Can I ask, to clarify for others, what that 'point' is?

[/quote]

If you are building an extension, it is regarded as a new build and subject to TVA at 19.6%

On renovations per se I am not aware of any limit to the value of works, but it has to be on an already habitable property - so barn conversions don't count for the lower rate, for example.

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I think it is three years - I once had to sign a declaration that I had owned the house (or at least, Julie had) for three years which turned out to be a way of checking that it was over three years old so that the plumber could apply 5.5% TVA.

Mind you, the idea of renovating a four year house doesn't fill you with confidence, does it?

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The lower rate applies to buildings that have been completed for more  two years old. The rule applies to the age of the property, not the duration of ownership.

The reason this rule exists is to avoid people buying a new house as a shell , then adding all manner of essential items at the lower rate.

There is nothing to stop you managing with a camping stove for cooking, and a plastic bucket  instead of a bathroom for two years after the H1 is submitted, then fitting them all at 5.5%. Realistically though its quite possible to add things such as fireplaces and fitted wardrobes later. So its not really renovation of an new house.

However any work which increases the habitable area should be charged at full rate. This is pretty easy to decide if you are building an extension, but less clear when you are converting space such as a barn or a loft. Similar confusion can occur when a long-empty house is totally renovated in which case full rate VAT can sometimes rear its head.

 

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Unfortunately, we have just found this out yesterday. Our stone Macon has given us a devis showing 5.5% VAT . He is beginning work next week and yesterday, informed us that he has just learned that the law changed in August and any extensions no matter the size that increases the habitable space is charged the full 19.5 %VAT . This is going to add a lot to the total price that we were totally unaware of before yesterday. [:(]

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My view in all of this is whatever you decide to do and how you run your joint? lives is very much a matter for you and for you alone.

I truly do not care.  What I care about is that I am a visitor in France and hopefully comply with all and I mean all of their rules.  I can live with myself and no doubt you can as well. I sleep well and content in the knowledge and to the best of my ability those charges and taxes within France and which I am informed that I am due to pay I have paid.  I can do no more.  It is very much your business no one elses.  I do not intrude but would say that to use a forum such as this to advertise for employees is not perhaps the most intelligent approach.  I say that as a Barrister in the UK and who specialises in employment and civil matters. Not that matters or that purely because of my background I am better or any worse than you! We are all human beings and our slant on life differs considerable and from person to person.

Whatever my views as to your posting are mine and mine alone and I think I will keep them to myself.  However is Riberac in the Dordogne?

 

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I have to admit that I do get fed up with this holier than thou attitude about work not going through the books, particularly when it singles out British people trying to make it in France. Why can people not accept that just about everybody in France from Chirac down is on the fiddle - the system encourages it after all, and making a living 100% legally is bloody hard. Surely it is up to the individual who they choose to do work, and how they pay them, rather than for forums like this to dictate. As long as people know what is what, and what the risks are, let them choose for themselves rather than being preached to here, particularly when it seems to be assumed that because somebody is British, and they do not quote Siret numbers at every stroke, they must be illegal.
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