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blackworkers !


steve
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with regard to a previous post " workers wanted ".

perhaps alarm bells are ringing for those that enquired, after all nobody wants anybody to enter into the black market side of france.

everything is supposed to be done honestly and of course, we all do that.

?

most of us have chosen to come over here to live and will respect the law, and regulations that we have to abide to........

until it gets cold

familiar sight lately, local farmers delivering firewood for the winter. trailers full up with euros and they declare every penny

is buying wood for your fire tax free? can the farmers just earn a little bit of cash for the winter? or anybody else that has more wood than they use. that kind of tax evasion seems accecptable??

i have yet to work here in france, and i do not begrudge anybody that earns anything.

why is it crossing the channel makes everyone holier than thou 

i have met quite a few local french people , most have a sideline ! TAX FREE

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The thread you are referring to is here - for those who don't know what you're talking about.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/782103/ShowPost.aspx

I didn't have any 'alarm bells' ringing but other people may be more attuned to things (or paranoid about them) than I am.[:)]

I agree with you, on the whole. Rural life in France - which so many of us desire - is partly characterised by bartering goods and services. There are no two ways about it.

It's normal. I don't know anyone here who doesn't do this. I've always offered the choice of cheque or cash for firewood. No one has ever said 'cheque please'!

The thing for me is, when does a 'sideline, TAX FREE', become a business TAX FREE, when everyone else is paying such high costs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="St Amour"]No but it is a different profession so what about cotisations?  That's the one that always creates the problem because it's the one you pay irrespective of earnings![/quote]

 

Not true, there is a threshold before the major contribution URSSAF is payable, and cotisations are relative to income earned so makes no difference,  if you dont earn much you dont pay much!

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Contributions are related to income but NOT in the first year, depending on your 'metier' the payments will be assessed on what they THINK you should earn plying that trade. It is possible to register for employment when you first come over, you will not receive any benefits but this will mean that when you do register with the Chambre d'Metiers you will qualify for low payments or even no payments in the first year of registration. I found this out after I had registered. You should of course check out what I have told you and there will others here who can tell you more, I am only relating my own experience and you will find that things are interpreted differently in all the regions of France, this is true of nearly all regulations, just read about vehicle registration for instance.....

good luck and best regards

Dave[:D]

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I'm sorry if this sounds "holier than thou" but I try whenever possible to get everything from building renovations to housework done by local workers on a fully paid-up basis.  I am very happy to live here in France and believe in supporting the system by paying my dues whether as workers' cotisations, income tax or social contributions etc etc.  Yes, it hurts at times, but at least I know that all work is properly certified and (more importantly perhaps) that all workers are fully insured while they work on my property. (When I think of the number of blokes who have turned up at the gate with chainsaw at the ready, to offer their services daring death high in my trees, I shudder).  I accept that my renovations are costing me more than in the UK because of these additional factors.

I have said "whenever possible" because at times it is just NOT possible to find a builder/handyman or whatever at ANY price to do an important task without waiting 18 months or so and so at times I have gritted my teeth and done the dirty deed, but it goes against the grain, well my personal grain if you can have such a thing.

What other people do, whether French or foreign, is for them to decide.

Chrissie (81)

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Chrissie, you don't sound prissy.  I'm not that concerned about buying a bit of wood on the black.  Wood seems to be the major 'black' commodity around here, everyone wants cash for it.  It seems to be the norm.  However, when I asked the plumber in the village if he could brush our chimney, he referrred it to the head office of the company he worked for and I got a proper quote for a boiler service and sweep.  So the black's not totally rife and rampant.

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[quote user="tj"]

[Not true, there is a threshold before the major contribution URSSAF is payable, and cotisations are relative to income earned so makes no difference,  if you dont earn much you dont pay much!

[/quote]

If only that were true.  I've been down that road and I can tell you it's not!  That's why I have questioned in another thread if there is a way of paying as you go if you only get a few jobs.  My husband has been offered plenty of "handyman" work, but certainly not enough to even cover the cost of cotisations, let alone have anything over for having done the work!  In addition, a neighbour of ours, French, had to give up working legally because he couldn't earn enough to cover his cotisations plus travel to jobs, which would have meant that he needed to get a second car for his wife to be able to have any kind of life, do the shopping, visit her aged father, etc. which meant he had to work very locally, which meant.... vicious circle, catch 22, he just couldn't make ends meet.  He's gone back to working on the black.

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[quote user="Chrissie"]

(When I think of the number of blokes who have turned up at the gate with chainsaw at the ready, to offer their services daring death high in my trees, I shudder).  [/quote]

Brightens up the day, though!

Had a bloke at the gate yesterday, said he'd do the row of trees at the side of the house for 1400 euros.

"Trop cher" said I.

"Liquide, 1000 euros" he said, without a moment's hesitation.

Still way trop cher (as you'd agree if you saw the trees!), but even there, straightaway a 400-euro drop in price.   You can't blame people for agreeing when you're talking about prices like that.

 

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I have several French friends who do the "black" thing.  In most cases, they have looked for "real" jobs for years on end with little or no luck - finding some temp jobs, but nothing long term and nothing reliable.  They have chosen to do various types of work on the black.  It is how they survive (i.e. feed the family and pay for the roof over their heads).  There is a high rate of unemployment in my area and many young people simply leave.  It is pretty sad. 

I can't begrudge my friends.  I pay one of them to cut my hair and it is never by cheque.  I'd rather have her do it as she is very good and she is 50% less than the beauty salons.  I do often wonder how they manage to avoid any troubles with the tax authorities or authorities in general. 

I also know artisans who, once they know you well, will often offer you a cash price.  Most of our work has been so important that we wanted the facture and would not risk the other option.  However, there have been the odd jobs (small jobs) ........

It seems to me that everywhere you look folks do this.  It has been the subject of many a conversation between me and my French friends and neighbors.  Just seems to be a fact of life.

Also, nearly ALL of the 13 restaurants in our small village do not take credit cards or cheques - ONLY cash.  I have often wondered how much of that is declared.

 

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We have noticed this year that more and more of our french clients upon the first devis visit to their properties are quite keen on the liquid payment and some of them are officials. I think people are sick and tired, us no exception, at paying out all our hard earned money to flunkeys in offices to shove paper around like the Caisse Congés where you seem to pay three times the money that the actual employee really recieves. A little bit here and there does no harm and I never thought I would say it, but I am fed up being poorer here with nothing to show for it at the end of the day.
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I now have positive proof that not only does this sort of thing NOT happen in the UK[;-)], but that there are some workers over here who are willing to pay tax and NI contributions on work that they haven't even done. Go figure. It's like this:

I got home today to a letter (all perfectly above-board) from a firm of solicitors.It comes with a stamped addressed envelope for my reply. The gist is as follows....

"We are pursuing a claim for compensation against a third party for our client Mr X arising out of an accident which occurred 3 years ago.......prior to the accident our client was self employed, carrying our wood stripping and floor sanding. He has not worked since the accident and we are pursuing a claim for loss of earnings on his behalf..............Our client has advised us that in the year prior to the accident, he carried out work at the above address. We are advised that he carried out work to the value of £600 at this property.

This income has been declared to the Inland Revenue but we are trying to prove....that his pre-accident earnings are ganuine because unfortunately our client has no invoices for the work carried out"

So, if this guy has been working without issuing or keeping invoices, but has declared the resultant earnings to the Inland Revenue, then it's the strangest case of black working I've ever heard of. I should just add that he hasn't done any work for us, and in fact I've never heard of him, so what exactly is wrong with this picture?

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Unfortunately the reality of 'normal' business practice amongst the self employed could never be published openly because there's always some saddo who's looking to 'report you to les impots', there's a wealth of practical do's and dont's that the inexperienced here could do with knowing.

The system here is weighed against those who generate their own income, perhaps in the future the system will recognise that it would be better to support and encourage the small businessman than to discourage them.

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"The system here is weighed against those who generate their own income, perhaps in the future the system will recognise that it would be better to support and encourage the small businessman than to discourage them."

Chris, for once I am in total agreement with you. The French officials seem to be under the impression that they encourage small business, but anybody with experience of working elsewhere knows that is far from the case.

It's a pretty daft system. Because it is so difficult, onerous and expensive for a one-man-band to employ anybody, they carry on alone, although the amount of work they could get would support another pair of hands under a less restrictive regime. So not only is that one more unemployment statistic, the young person who might have been employed in his home village has to move to the big towns to get a job. It's also somebody who is not being trained to take over from his boss when the boss retires. And when the boss retires that's one fewer artisan. Customers cannot find proper tradesmen, so to get work done they look at the black market. So that's potential tax and social security income lost to the government, so they have to raise the charges imposed on the legitimate workers, making it still more expensive to take on staff.

If France has any problems they are high unemployment, rural decline and shortage of artisans - not to mention the widespread black employment market. I don't think it takes a super-brain to see that making it simpler and cheaper to start a business and encourage the small businesses to grow it would help solve all of those issues.

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I'm gutted that you disagree with me on occasion Will [:(]

You've simply stated the obvious though...well to those of us who have lived the life of providing our own income. The mental and emotional energy wasted on the beaurocracy of this place is vital energy taken away from sustaining and growing a business. That's one of the many traps that inexperienced Brits fall into here. To that end I see the beaurocrats as being little better than frustrated parasites who's life achievement will be pushing a pen around and making life difficult for the small business.

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