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jules
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[quote]Although social contributions in France are high, certainly for a

salaried worked they would not bridge the gap down the €15000, so I am

now baffled. This is frequently, I find, a problem with statistics.[/quote]

Well, quite!  I did an MSc in stats a few years ago (just to stave off boredom!)  I think you typically find that with a correctly worded hypothesis you can show just about whatever you want to with the use of statistics!  I guess it all comes down to what is and isn't included in those two sets of statistics.  IMHO the stats on the originally posted website are probably a bit simplistic - i.e. total net household income declared for the commune divided by the number of households in the commune - that is obviously inclusive of pensioners, people living on benefits etc. etc. and not representative of wages per se.  Without in-depth information we'll never really know.

Perhaps those people who poo-poo'd my stat of 29000 euros might find that I was not actually so far out after all taken as a comparison between what would normally be quoted as an average income in the UK, which is what I was trying to do [:)]

Matt

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[quote user="mmaddock"]

Perhaps those people who poo-poo'd my stat of 29000 euros might find that I was not actually so far out after all taken as a comparison between what would normally be quoted as an average income in the UK, which is what I was trying to do [:)]

[/quote]

Out of curiosity, what is quoted for the UK? You're right - if both sets of figures are equally suspect then there could be a valid basis for comparison...

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From the ONS - (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/article.asp?id=1687) gross median annual earnings were £23,600 for full-time employees.  I'm sure if I dig around I can find an average for all those "working" in some way, which I suspect will bring that figure down a bit, but to be honest I have to be up at 5 tomorrow morning to contribute towards our commune's income statistics [:)] and I can't be bothered to go searching too deeply right now!!  The ONS website is pretty comprehensive so I'm sure there will be something on there.

Matt

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I definitely poo-poo those stats still[:)]  Also, bearing in mind that they are for 2003 and the French economy started to take a nose dive from around 2002.

Stats or not, we only have to look at the state of the French economy (through their own reports) over the last few years and the number of govt subsidised jobs (not talking about functionnaires) to see that incomes are really not that impressive. I'm nosey, I ask people to give me a rough figure of wages in the region and it's not good. I think the averages are always inflated by govts.

Stats apart, Jules wants to know the level of taxation in France and I think he will be ill-advised to come here thinking that this was a low taxation country. Not sure if he has kids and will be getting govt subsidies but I really don't think that would be a good reason to move here. Let's not forget that the CAF revenues come from taxes too. Even Jon's calculations make depressing reading for a family of four.

Jon, I think your comment on the spiritual well-being is interesting. I'm easy to please (believe it or not[:D]) and when I wake up in the morning, open my windows and have the sun streaming through my windows (300 plus days a year), I assure you that spiritually; I'm happy. However, I'm not sure how long this spiritual well-being would last if I didn't know how I was going to pay my bills and fund my very modest lifestyle. There is a lot of poverty in this country and people like Jules should be forewarned so their move here will be successful.

Jules, perhaps you could contact the head office of the French inland revenue and get your personal circumstances assessed. In my experience, the Impot are about the most efficient public organisation in this country (unfortunately[:(]), and at HQ, there will probably be English speakers equipped to advise you. Don't move here using Britainshire lifestyles as representative of France. Brits downshift to France but the average French has very little to downshift to.

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[quote user="Jon"]
Out of curiosity, what is quoted for the UK? You're right - if both sets of figures are equally suspect then there could be a valid basis for comparison...
[/quote]

£22,901 for 2005, according to the TUC. The Office of National Statistics quotes a weekly wage of £431 for the same year (up to £446 in 2006 ), equivalent to an annual figure of £22,900.

However, British full time workers put in an average of 39.4 hours per week.

 

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[quote user="Will "]

[quote user="Jon"]

Out of curiosity, what is quoted for the UK? You're right - if both sets of figures are equally suspect then there could be a valid basis for comparison...

[/quote]

£22,901 for 2005, according to the TUC. The Office of National Statistics quotes a weekly wage of £431 for the same year (up to £446 in 2006 ), equivalent to an annual figure of £22,900.

However, British full time workers put in an average of 39.4 hours per week.

 

[/quote]

OK - that's about €34000. Given that the UK and France have broadly similar GDPs (€29-30k per head), minimum wage (SMIC = about £5.50) and costs & standards of living (obviously lower in France [:)]), the per household figure of €15000 (may be for single person households, looking at the INSEE site)  just does not pass the Funny Look Test. Matt's FT (a paper known to be far more scrupulous in checking than any other) of €29000 lots far more sensible and tallies better with the INSEE site.

Taking the €29000 figure (and feel free to correct my reckoning) for a two adult two child household with one partner employed:

- Social Chrages (employee) about €6440

- Income tax (three unit household with an allowance of €5800 per unit) = €730

- Total direct "tax" on €29000 = €7170 or 24.7%

For a single person on the same wage the income tax would be €2830, so the percentile deduction would rise to 32%.

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Working on the same rationale, for an average UK wage (say £23,000), married couple with kids (not that it makes any difference in the UK) for 2006 that would work out at...

£3,694.30 income tax

£1.975.16 National Insurance

£5,699.46 Total direct tax

...by my reckoning that's 24.7% - surely it can't be right that the figure comes out to exactly the same??!!  Admittedly it makes sod all difference in the UK (from a supposedly "family friendly" govt) if you're not married with kids, so single people it would appear are better off in the UK on a direct tax only basis - tho if you take into account rent etc. etc. there are likely better off here with an equivalent "average" job. 

As I said from the start, it all depends on your personal circumstances, and I know for us that we're significantly better off in France because of many factors, personal and financial - not least of which, I'm saving over £1000 in fuel tax on my annual bill!

I think, as you pointed out Jon, it is all down to perception.  The two constituents of a UK PAYE tax bill are reasonably similar, so neither appear to be too high - but in France where income tax is low, but social charges are high, the social charges are perveiced as being *very* high.  I'm not saying they are not high, but you have to consider tax as a whole - at the end of the day it all goes out of your pay packet and to the govt no matter what heading it comes under!

Matt

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As a self-employed professional in France I agree with most of what has been written so have no desire to re-invent the wheel. None the less, what has not been mentioned is that as a result of the higher social/tax deductions the overall standard of public services / health / pensions are streets ahead of the UK so that, for example if you need a new knee joint or an MRI scan you don't have to actually clinically dead before they decide to offer you the service.

Despite working working long hours (considerably more than 35!) and running a successful business, it is still unlikely that I will ever earn the same as my UK professional counterparts but I would not change places for all that.  

 

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Anglo-Frenchman, now that I live here, I'm not sure that the high level of taxation is what makes the French health service and transport ,for example, more efficient than that of the UK.

I now put the better performance in these two areas down to better organisation of the French system. The Health System in France contains a strong element of ''private'' health management built into it. Something rejected by the Brits.  In the UK, if you have private health insurance, you can access operations and treatments very quickly as in France. 

Any govt that privatises it's national transport system needs its head examining in my opinion. France has always maintained a state controlled system and this cohesion has been beneficial. I think the organisation ,or lack of, of a number of public services in the UK has been the cause of much of the mess, not lower taxes.

As has been discussed in other threads; not too sure about the pensions being streets ahead though.

It's good you won't swap places (nor would I because I couldn't cope with anymore grey skies[:(]) but thousands of young French people are clearly not of your opinion.

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[quote user="Jon"]I've explained this before, though I can't remember where. The tax on micro BIC income is calculated as follows (broadly):

- Revenue (ie turnover) receives an abatement of 68% (2007) for "expenses". Say you have a business that receives €50000 as turnover, then the tax people will call 32% or €16000 as being income assessed for tax.

[/quote]

Jon

just a question  about the above quote.

I thought the maximum turnover for a micro BIC  is €24,000 but you say IF a business receives €50000. Is it possible therefore to receive more than €24,000 if you have a micro BIC

thanks

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Depends on the type of business, Lister:

LE REGIME DE LA MICRO-ENTREPRISE

(D’après la circulaire

DSS/SDFSS/5B/n°04/205 du 4 mai 2004 relative à l’application de la loi

n°2003-721 du 1er août 2003 pour l’initiative économique)

L’article 35 de la loi du 1er août 2003 pour

l’initiative économique s’adresse aux petites entreprises bénéficiant

de dispositions fiscales avantageuses et simplifiées :

  • l’article 102 ter CGI fixe le régime déclaratif spécial pour les bénéfices non commerciaux (BNC).

    Le bénéfice de ce régime est réservé aux contribuables percevant des

    revenus non commerciaux n’excédant pas, au cous d’une année civile,

    27000€ hors taxes. Dans ce cas, le montant brut des recettes annuelle

    est diminué d’une réfaction forfaitaire de 25% depuis 2006 (37%

    auparavant).
  • l’article 50-0 CGI fixe le régime de la micro-entreprise pour les

    entreprises artisanales, commerciales ou industrielles. Ce régime est

    réservé aux entreprises dont le chiffre d’affaires annuel n’excéde pas :
    • 76300 € hors taxes s’il s’agit d’entreprises dont le commerce principal est de vendre des marchandises(BIC),

      objets, fournitures et denrées à emporter ou à consommer sur place ou

      de fournir le logement. Dans ce cas, le chiffre d’affaires hors taxes

      est diminué d’un abattement forfaitaire de 68% depuis 2006 (72%

      auparavant).
    • 27000 € hors taxes dans les autres cas de bénéfices industriels et commerciaux (BIC). Dans ce second cas, le chiffre d’affaires est diminué d’un abattement forfaitaire de 45% depuis 2006 (52% auparavant).
Dans tous les cas, le montant minimum de l’abattement appliqué sera de 305 €.

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The lower turnover for a micro is for a micro-bnc, i.e. a non-trading company (though I thought it was 27,000€?, and you can have some sorts of non-trading micro-bic just to add to the confusion). A normal micro-bic, because it has materials or stock to buy, is allowed a considerably higher turnover.

Edit - Cassis beat me to it.

I wouldn't agree that the French health and social security system is any more efficient than the British. It may lack the waiting lists etc (though not for everything) but that comes at a cost. It has haemorrhaged cash at a rate far faster than even the NHS, and reputedly employs an even greater percentage of bureaucrats. Hence not only the high charges, but the hated CRDS that everybody has to pay, which is to make up for the social security debts incurred.

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Hi Lister,

As m'learned friends above have already said, it does depend on the type of business one is in. The higher limit is for enterprise perceived to be high cost - sales of goods and provison of accomodation (which is why may gite owners use this business model). The lower is for low cost business, such as -oh I dont know - a translation service. A chmbre de commerce would be able to advise which model if either would be appropriate.

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