A distasteful question

[Collywobble]

Hi All,

I hate to sully the forum with matters of argent,

but I would really appreciate any (even anecdotal) advice regarding

the average hourly rate (from the homeowners

perspective) for a charpentier. I have the the relevant papers/experience.

I also do very good floor/wall tiling, plastering (at this one, I'm

slow, but do a  good job) and maintenance plumbing; alas, no papers for

the latter skills.  If there are any builders reading this, subs rates

are also of interest. (feel free to PM me)   but I think it prudent to

stick to the carpentry begin with.

I'm particularly  interested in the Perigord or Carcassone areas, but any info / advice is appreciated regardless of the area.

BTW,

Please (please please) don't lambaste me with comments along the lines

"there is more to life than money" or "It's the lifestyle, not the

money" etc... as I totally agree,  which is

why I actually want to live in France.  [:)]

This info will help me

budget the more mundane / pragmatic aspects of life - like having insurance and feeding the kids [:)]

I have read

many (highly informative) comments about Artisans insurance, tax,

Devis, SIRETs, working noir etc, (I want to do everything correctly) but there don't seem to be many comments about what people

actually pay for an  artisan.

Thanks in advance for this.

Cheers

Colly

[Will]

There seems to be a consensus that once you have paid your cotisations and taxes, covered the cost of transport and equipment and other overheads, taken out the necessary insurances, and paid yourself the equivalent of what you would get on the SMIC, you are not looking at anything less than about 25€ per hour. If you feel you warrant more than the minimum wage, then that's up to you. I am not an artisan, so can't give you a breakdown of all the costs, but at least there is a figure to get you, and the debate, started.

[Val_2]

We are kept advised by CAPEB and the accountants of what to charge to cover cotisations and insurance etc and no artisan should be working under 30€/hour these days. Labourers are a lot less, around the 22€/hour mark depending on coefficient level of salary.

[Collywobble]

Will, Val,

To be honest it is a bit more than I expected, but I do appreciate the additional administrative overheads.

Thanks for the info, it does help me budget/plan etc

Cheers

[Teamedup]

Is the 30€ an hour the price that the customer is charged Val2.

[Collywobble]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

Is the 30€ an hour the price that the customer is charged Val2.

[/quote]

Teamedup,

That is how I am interpreting it. My original question was "from the homeowners

perspective"

cheers

[KathyC]

Your calculations seem to say that two thirds of your income goes on taxes/cotisations; surely you don't mean that?

Also, presumably employed people who are on SMIC pay tax/cotisations deducted from that amount - they don't clear the 8/9 euros do they? - or have I missed something?

[Teamedup]

People on the SMIC pay about 20% + in cotisations. The SMIC is 1257€ a month less the stoppages, so most will pick up around a 1000 euros a month.  They get harder hit than high earners as there are ceilings on some things. Then they pay income tax on the rest and pay for their mutualist.

 

If an artisan is earning about 30€ an hour and from what has been said, half will go to the government and then the rest is pay. It isn't a lot either is it, and income tax will still have to be paid.

[Lori]

If it is any consolation my Electrician / Plumber charges 32 euros per hour for labor.

 

[Cerise]

Collywobble - local menuisier charges 31 euro hr and husband's boss, electrician/plumber, 32 euro hr.  If you are employing anyone you also need to be aware that the amount you pay in cotisations is about 70% of what they receive in salary (ie if you are paying them the SMIC you pay about anoth 700 euros as your share of the cotisation).  It is also much less common for artisans to have credit arrangements with suppliers than it is in the UK so you need to plan your cash flow accordingly.  Most artisans seem to have plenty of work but I think it is cash flow which makes it so difficult for them.  Many regions now have local 'business help' offices attached to or working with the chambre de metiers.  If you approach CdM in your proposed area I'm sure they would give you more information.

You seem to be planning things well.  Good Luck

Maggi

 

 

[Will]

[quote user="KathyC"]

Your calculations seem to say that two thirds of your income goes on taxes/cotisations; surely you don't mean that?

Also, presumably employed people who are on SMIC pay tax/cotisations deducted from that amount - they don't clear the 8/9 euros do they? - or have I missed something?

[/quote]

That was all taken into account with the approximate figure I gave above. Cotisations amount to 40% to 50% of taxable income, in real terms something approaching a third of actual income. Add tax on to that, and the various official bodies account for just over a third. Costs and overheads (other than raw materials which are charged separately from labour) can easily account for at least a third for the average business. That leaves about a third, or slightly less, for the tradesman.

A person on the SMIC is likely to lose about 20% in employee contributions (the employer pays far more) and tax - most employees on the SMIC will pay little if any tax. So from the 8.27€ the employee is left with just under 7€. An employer will pay for the full 35 hours, whereas a tradesman cannot usually charge all of his time to the client. So for a self-employed tradesman to get the same, about 25-30€ looks perfectly fair.

[KathyC]

I don't think that I'm ever going to agree with this way of looking at it, but perhaps someone who's always been an employee is never going to see it this way. You're comparing the self employed person's money after all deductions with the employee's money before deductions: you're assuming that the employee does no work/travelling/training outside his/her working hours and that someone who's self employed has large overheads. Obviously some people do have these but the plumbers and electricians I've used, both in the UK and France, seem to turn up in ratty old cars or vans with a bag of tools. Not a great deal of overheads in that!

[Russethouse]

Well I guess the car/van got tatty on the job - don't forget the self employed have no one to pay for their holiday and as we have seen here recently also need to insure for sickness/accident. Being self employed certainly is not all roses by any means.

My daughter is employed - away at a nice hotel tonight, good mileage allowance to get to and from and in Sept her employer is paying her fees to get further qualifications. Its not ALL bad!

[Chris Head]

Then add to all the above the money that has to be found to replace and maintain equipment and vehicles, stock that continually has to be replenished (timber in my case), the admin, the many insurances that have to be paid, unpaid time off, time that has to be found for research and development, time that has to be found to give to family and to keep up to speed with work at home, etc, etc.

It's far from the life that many know or would be comfortable with, but if you're used to working outside your comfort zone, don't take no for an answer and have got good people behind you, anything is possible!

[Will]

[quote user="KathyC"]I don't think that I'm ever going to agree with this way of looking at it, but perhaps someone who's always been an employee is never going to see it this way.[/quote]

All I can say is that I have been self-employed in Britain and France, employed in Britain, and am married to somebody who is employed in France. So I have personal experience. And I am taking the deductions for employed people into account, though not the employer's contribution, which is substantial, and has to be paid, at a slightly lower level, by the self-employed.

My self-employment in France (not as an artisan) was probably not typical in that I had high travelling costs and low-ish overheads, and Mrs Will's employment is not typical either because she still has comparatively high non-reimbursed expenses (though these are mostly tax-deductible), so her 'deductions' are substantially more than the average employee's. Nevertheless, I still maintain that the figures are a reasonable representation.

How much do you think it would be reasonable to pay a skilled self-employed artisan in France, Kathy?

[Will]

[quote user="KathyC"]I don't think that I'm ever going to agree with this way of looking at it, but perhaps someone who's always been an employee is never going to see it this way.[/quote]

All I can say is that I have been self-employed in Britain and France, employed in Britain, and am married to somebody who is employed in France. So I have personal experience. My self-employment in France was probably not typical in that I had high travelling costs and low-ish overheads, and Mrs Will's employment is not typical because she still has comparatively high non-reimbursed expenses (though these are mostly tax-deductible). Nevertheless, I still maintain that the figures are a reasonable representation.

How much do you think it would be reasonable to pay a skilled self-employed artisan in France, Kathy?

[KathyC]

Will

I'm not really saying that particular rates are too high, I'm just commenting on some comparisons that have been made between self employed and salaried workers that I don't think are particularly valid. For example, the statement that self employed people have high overheads isn't necessarily true; neither is the assumption that employed people are paid for every hour they spend doing their work. Even your first comment about paying yourself the equivalent of SMIC makes the assumption that you'll be going away with the gross SMIC amount rather than the nett amount that an employed worker would walk away with. I appreciate that comparisons can be difficult but it helps when people try to compare like with like,  when possible.

[Will]

Kathy

I cannot accept what you say about not making fair comparisons between salaried and self-employed workers in France. You will see that the first post said 'the equivalent of...' rather than just the SMIC, so I was talking about what was in the pay packet rather than just the basic rate. My next post made reference to the deductions of around 20% from the SMIC - again acknowledging the difference between gross and net figures.

Self employed people have to cover the costs of some if not all of equipment, premises, stationery, postage, tools, insurances and countless other things that are provided by employers.

One can only speak in the most general terms anyway as it is near-impossible to draw direct comparisons. Some employees get generous expenses packages, others have to cover all their own costs. Some self-employed can reclaim expenses from their clients, others have to cover these in the rates charged.

I believed that to make a living, an skilled artisan needs to charge at least 25€ per hour. This was backed up by people saying they charged/paid 30€, 32€ or whatever. So I think that shows my figure was, if anything, a conservative estimate. I rest my case.

[Collywobble]

Hi, as usual, question 'A' becomes debate 'B'  [;)]   and this is

evolving from "How much pay does a workie get" to "Justify that hourly

rate" [:P]

As with any job, I think people sometimes forget that you not only pay someone for what they do, but for what they know. Obviously some jobs take longer to 'know' than others.

Put it this way, most of us have a legally issued drivers lic. but there is a huge difference in peoples ability. Why would it be any different with plumber, painters, hairdressers, pilots, doctors...   This is why some people get paid more than their peers.

However, at the end of the day, the job will probably be done better/safer/faster and possibly cheaper by employing a (competent) professional.

I guess there will be thoughts along the lines of "you are wrong because I know one time

where a tradesman made a c**kup of ..."   yes, but overall, you are

better to have a 'qualified' and experienced (insured etc) person do

the job and pay the going rate, or even slightly above it for best person. 

As a former family friend who is a solicitor said "my clients may not

like me, but they pay me because if they try and do it themselves, it

will probably end in tears"   

I must admit to not really appreciating other peoples comments along

the lines of "the system will prevent you getting rich" but it does

appear to be the case.

cheers

[cooperlola]

I'm with you there Collyw - for myself I find paying a bit more up front for a reliable person pays dividends in the end.  Oh, the money we've spent getting other people's diy put stuff right (here and in the UK).  I've just had my roof done and when a few leaks became evident I just phoned the guy up and presto, it's fixed.  Not so easy to get that sort of service from your local cowboy![:)]

[Collywobble]

[quote user="KathyC"]

For example, the statement that self employed people have high overheads isn't necessarily true;

[/quote]

KathyC,  your comment is accurate if for example you are talking about a 'self

employed' lorry driver who gets paid as a subcontractor on a set fee

per mile/job/hour basis and doesn't really have that many outgoings,

but not for a (legitimate) tradespersons me thinks. (no disrespect to lorry drivers)

Based on what I have read in the forum, I am budgeting €4000 PA for

insurance,  something an employed person doesn't need to worry about.

But you are right when we think about most management (or other

salaried) roles. Many managers - regardless of the industry -  earn

less per hour than their staff when you think about the "stay till the

job is done" mentality. I have worked in other industries where many management came in every saturday to keep their heads above (paperwork) water .

The comments about sickness are painfully true. I once cut my hand on a

tablesaw (think upside down power saw) and was unable to work for six

weeks (all unpaid). More recently my wife became seriously ill and

needed an

operation. I was only able to work two or three 1/2 days per week and

had to juggle kids, homework etc (I admit to having a whole new respect

for my wife after that). This

went on for almost three months and we have no family in the area

(i.e. country). We are still feeling the financial pain of that one,

and in a very big way. For this reason I am about to go from being self

employed to being an employee for a while as I will be guaranteed an

income and will be able to write some of my losses off for tax purposes.

The potential unpaid element of being self employed is something that

people don't take into consideration (along with most overheads) when

they are handing the chq to the self employed person who they just got

to do something that they wouldn't/couldn't do.[;-)]

Cheers

[Collywobble]

Maggi

Thanks for that. Every bit of info helps.

cheers

[Coco]

[quote user="Collywobble"]
The potential unpaid element of being self employed is something that people don't take into consideration (along with most overheads) when they are handing the chq to the self employed person who they just got to do something that they wouldn't/couldn't do.[;-)]

[/quote]

Absolutely!  People always look at the hourly rate, multiply it by 8 then by 5, then by 52 and come out with the classic, "Huh, I wish I earned half that".  The fact is, these figures assume that the artisan is working 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, no holiday, no enforced bank holidays, no sick leave, no time travelling to customers to give them their free devis, no time spent doing paperwork....... I could go on.   An employee gets a guaranteed annual salary plus holiday and sick leave - nice work if you can get it!

In my case I'm not an artisan but in running a B&B we often get requests, like last week, "my husband wants to stay for 3 nights but he'll probably be leaving too early to have breakfast each morning, what would your rate be for that?"  Well, my nightly rate is 50 euros, so it remains at 50 euros.  Breakfast probably only costs me about 3 euros per head but you start doing that and then everyone will be saying, "Oh I don't feel like breakfast this morning, can you knock it off the bill?"  They need to go to a hotel, where they charge extra for breakfast, if they want to avoid paying for it.  Again, people think we're raking it in;  50 euros per night, x 4 rooms, that's 200 euros per night, 1400 a week,  even if you only have the place filled for half the year that's 36000+ a year - in your dreams!!!  There's so much down-time (or non-earning time) involved in running your own business - I work MANY more hours now than I did when I was a PAYE employee.

A plumber friend of ours closed down his own business last year, after being in business only one year - the cotisations and insurance were just too high for the amount of work he was getting as a start-up business.  On top of that, this November he got a hugely increased bill for taxe d'habitation because the impots said that a percentage of his house must have been given over to running his business in terms of storage etc.![:@]

[nonpc]

very sad story coco

A friend of mine from wales who moved to france last year also had to give up his plumbing business as he had lots of problems with the different plumbing styles and pipe work he said he could not cope as he had to many leaks

[Collywobble]

[quote user="nonpc"]

very sad story coco

A friend of mine from wales who moved to france last year also had to give up his plumbing business as he had lots of problems with the different plumbing styles and pipe work he said he could not cope as he had to many leaks

[/quote]

Seriously? or is this a "My friend Everard..."  Sound a bit Larry Grayson to me [;-)]