Why do you stay in France?

[Rose]

I read the forums from expats and second home owners like a sponge.  We, like so many before us want to move to France - we've been coming for decades and love France.  Love the food, the markets, the people, the countryside, the weather, the family life, the attitude, the architecture, the culture - of course this is only ever viewed through the eyes of a visitor who is going home. 

What niggles/worries a bit are the number of posts that are, shall we say, less than positive about living in France.  [Www]  Whilst there are posts saying how great it is, there are a great many that seem to suggest a lot of unhappiness and frustration (or are these just the ones that stick in my mind) Is that just the nature of forums? Can I ask you all  If you had your time again would you have moved to France?  What are the reasons that keep you in France?  What are the best bits about living in France? 

(If it helps, we have a good life in the UK, good income, good family and good friends and we live in a good area and even with all of this goodness we still yearn to live in France. We know that it isn't sunny all the time, you have very cold winters and perhaps micro-climates are out there somewhere but we won't rely on them.  We know the gulf stream keeps the UK warm but it seems to keep us wet too and we pretty much hate the rain and damp... rather it was cold than just plain wet!

We live in a rural location now and we want to do the same in SW France.  I smile at the posts about growing your own veg and keeping chickens as yes we want all of this  but we've done that in the UK and we know we want to do it some more.  We want to be part of a French community and are also happy to have an international group of friends. French language skills, we're just about ok with lots of room for improvement but we know it will improve when we're there and we will have to keep up with the kids!

As for income - when our business is sold we’ll have a good lump sum and in the meantime, our business will continue to give a good income, although we are researching the tax implications of running a UK company, for UK clients, with a UK office, whilst living in France - hubby is ACA so he is on the case.  In an ideal world we would wait for a sale but we don't want to wait any longer!

We feel we've done a mountain of research (no doubt not enough!) We also think we've remove all trace of rose tint from view but I would welcome some comments on why folks should move to France... [blink]

p.s. the history bit was to help avoid getting shot down in flames as this is the first time I've plucked up the courage to post... be gentle with me!

 

[Will]

The reason negative aspects may stick in your mind is because a lot of people move overseas for the wrong reasons, and I think one purpose of forums like this is to stop such peoplee making a big, often irreversible, mistake. So you will see the negatives as well as the positives, and that is only right. If only the TV programmes and glossy magazines were as frank.

If you are moving because you like France, that's probably the best reason of all. If you are moving because you don't like Britain, because you think France is a cheap place to live, or because you are trying to escape personal problems, then you will probably become disillusioned.

Nearly everybody seems to underestimate the difficulties of finding employment or the bureaucracy and costs involved in earning a living from your own business. People come to downsize, or expecting a less stressful life, but it is very difficult to 'get by' working fewer hours in France as over half of your time is effectively spent working to pay the government - more than in Britain. You get better services in return, but even that can be debatable. It is made more difficult if your work is still based in Britain, although there are good specialist accountants (that might not seem to apply to you, but have you seen French tax and TVA forms?). France is ideal for those who have taken early retirement with a reasonable income, less ideal if you need to work.

That's probably more why some do not stay in France, whereas you asked for reasons why you should move to France. But from what you say I think you know why you want to move.

Just remember France isn't for everybody, and as long as you go with your eyes open and don't make the mistake of thinking that because something is done one way in England that you can do the same in France, you should be fine.

[RumziGal]

pps, if you're an avid phollower of phorums, you will have noticed the recurring causes of discontent.

Difficulty in finding jobs.

Difficulty in making money (you really have to enjoy being poor long-term!).

Retired and/or rich people seem the happiest.    

 

[Will]

Is it significant that the first two replies are from people with a foot in both countries? Maybe we have got it right, there are positives and negatives for both Britain and France of course, and it is possible to live in two places.

[Llwyncelyn]

We have all touched upon this in the past but one of the contributors is seemingly suggesting that 'retired and/or rich people seem the happiest.' That might be correct or it might be a generalisation.

Thus I can only address it from a personal standpoint.  I truly had my roots in a very poor family in the mining communities of South Wales. However by sheer hard work determination strong family values the four brothers all made something of their lives.  Indeed the work ethic was driven into us and still remains strong.  By way of example my brother at 79 is still working not that he needs the cash and can buy and sell me ten times over but he wants to make a contribution and to be recognised for so doing.  My other brother is doing charitable work.

For me I chose the law route and prior to coming here was responsibility for lots of medical stuff including setting up and participating in a national NHS complaints scheme and where those who were subjected to the vagaries of the UK health service could have at least an outlet for what were in some cases incidents of absolute horror and of which you could not possibly envisage.  I also did the conventional stuff including pro bono work and have a Court of Appeal case to my name again pro bono.

That is the background now to France. We made the fatal and mistake of forgetting location location location and bought a wonderful house in the country in August and on an equally wonderful day.  Winter here in Normandie has been something else and the last two winters have made an impression upon my soul.  Five days of being unable to get in and out last year and three to date this year.  More to come seemingly this week.

We love France its culture its lifestyle and its France we do not come here to change their system.

Thus why do I stay here for I am now semi-retired and with some would say a good income but that is a result of forty four years of bloody hard work and a lot of which I elected not to get paid for.  I am not rich but we have property both here in France and the UK and the UK will never be sold for it is that bolt hole for us.

I really cannot answer my own question and we are now once more torn between moving from Normandie further south and when this time location location location and the lessons of our first purchase will be taken into account or going home.

My wife is really happy here and suffers from a long-standing medical complaint but I miss the getting to grips with problems trying to help those who truly need our help fighting the UK health system or to be precise those tiny percentage within it and of course the politicians whose conduct and targets and law making defines the health service.

I miss my days in front of tribunals and the other legal apparatus I miss hopefully trying to make the difference.

In short retirement is not really for me be it in France or the UK.  I really do need help...........that by the way is a throw away remark!  The same problem I am sure would exist if I resided in Spain Portugal or whatever. 

[Cerise]

pale-pink-specs - OK I'll go first.   If I had my time again would I come to France?  Answer definitely yes, but perhaps not so early in my life  (when we arrived  I was 46 and OH 41 been here 5 years) .  The best bits; our lovely home in a beautiful place, the weather, the kindness of the local people, the fact that my husband and I have more time together, the pride in knowing that we have managed to make a go of it despite the odds.  The worst bits; the mind numbing bureaucracy and the rigidity of the systems, the sheer difficulty of earning money legally,  being poor, missing my friends and social network, lack of evening classes and other social activities that don't involve country dancing!!  Why do we stay; we are mostly happy and have a beautiful home and both have work, my husband has had a retraining opportunity and it would be crazy to go anywhere before he has finished that, if we went back to UK we would have to find work and would certainly not have the kind of house we have here, if we moved to another country we would have the same problems all over again.

Will we stay - now there is an interesting question.  I would quite like to retire to France as it is a great place to be retired BUT we will never make any money here and retirement is probably nicer if you can afford a few luxuries so it is tempting to think of going somewhere else to earn money and then coming back.  However - we do have enough income to live on and perhaps with a bit more time we will adapt further and stay.

Why should anyone move to France?  Well, I'm a great believer that you should try to follow your dreams - if you don't they will nag away at you going, what if, what if, for the rest of your days.  If you change your mind and return to UK or move on IT IS NOT FAILING.  If you moved from London to (say) Edinburgh then changed your mind and moved to Cornwall no one would say you have failed so why if you change your mind about France do they say failure?  Realistically it helps if you have a good deal of money and an external income (pension, large savings, income from UK).  In the UK we are used to the idea that if you work hard and don't mind what you do you can always earn money.  That is simply not so in France.  Since I have been here I noticed that the people who 'love the simple life' are those who have enough money that the car packing up is not a major catastrophe.  Worry about money makes people very unhappy.  Being rich doesn't necessarily make you happy, but there is nothing very ennobling about being poor and always wondering if you are going to be able to pay the next bill is quite soul destroying.

Are forums particularly negative?  I think that the problem is that people really want to believe there is paradise elsewhere.  On our recent 3 week trip to UK we found that our friends and relatives were positively angry if we suggested that anything in France was less than perfect.  They really want to believe that we live in a crime free, tax free, bucolic world where cheap wine and sitting in the sun are all that matter.  The idea that we feel that the system relating to work is awful and cotisations huge, I reckon there is a large hole in the bottom of the 'marvellous' health service, and that crime is no less than in UK (just not as reported) does not sit well with the ideas they have fostered.  People who have lived here for a while just moan about the problems in their lives as people do in UK - be honest is anywhere really that 'fantastic'.  We had a good life in UK and we moaned about our problems sometimes.  We have a good life here and we moan about our problems.  The forums also attract many 'rose tinted' spectacle wearers and perhaps against that the truth seems a little harsh.

You say you love the French people - well many people say that and then go on to say, as you do, that they have poor language skills.  Realistically it is difficult to 'love' people when you don't really know what they are saying.  When I say that I have difficulty making friends people are angry with me and say 'Oh nonsense - everyone likes you and you have loads of friends'.  No, I have loads of acquaintances who are very nice and kind - it is not the same thing.    I am a fluent French speaker and realise that a great deal of the time I'm just not on the same wavelength as the people I'm chatting to - perhaps, indeed, it would be easier if I didn't understand.  Many people tell me proudly that they have 'French friends' when in fact what they mean is that they speak in pidgin French to a few local drunks in the bar and their elderly neighbour.  The elderly neighbour may be delightful, but in the UK would they have really considered those people 'friends' or just acquaintances.

You don't say how old your children are - but I think that will probably have a bearing on your ease of settling.  Very young children usually settle easily.  Adolescents are very often extremely unhappy, have difficulties adapting to the very different school system, miss their friends and hate it.  Not a good recipe for family harmony.

Have tried to be gentle and would wish you luck if after all your research you still want to go for it.  You will never know if you don't try, but one of the reasons I tell it like it is is that I've seen so many people disillusioned when it didn't match their dreams.  Because I speak French I'm often asked to help when things go horribly wrong for someone. I'd be a rich woman if I'd had 10 euros for every time my phone went and it was the doctor, vet, mayor or someone else saying 'I wonder if you can help, I've got this English person here, they don't speak French and .....'  So, realistically I may see quite a lot of the gloomy side and all the happier people are simply getting on with it.  But I'd not be doing anyone a favour if I wasn't honest about what can go wrong.  Forewarned is forearmed.

Forgive the long and rambling post, hope it has given you food for thought.  What ever decision you make - enjoy it!

 

Maggi

 

[RumziGal]

Give that woman a medal!   [:)]

[Cerise]

Ta Rumzigirl - took me so long to type it Iwasn't first after all!

[Miki]

I read the post and wondered when I wrote it.................and then realised it was Maggi !!

But then being a fellow (is there a feminine fellow ?) B&B'er, who is also poor, overworked and in need of a lotto win, I understood it very well [;-)]

So yes, give the lady a medal. Lucky it wasn't a while back, you would have been attacked by all and sundry (vicious family they were).

Llwyncelyn, hard times !! Huh,  bet you never lived in a cardboard box on a roundabout  [:)]

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I'm not going to bore you with our CV, and I really can't be bothered with a 'tis -'tisn't scene with anyone, so I shall confine my comments to the following with no explanation:

- We have never regreted our move here four years ago and have significantly improved our quality of life at the expense of our income. We are happy with the trade;

- It is a serious mistake to underestimate the importance of language when moving to a new country;

- Personally, I would strongly advise against moving to France with school age children: ours were very young when we arrived and bearly noticed the change of scene. They have few if any memories of living anywhere else. Older children frequently have a miserable time of it.

[Bob T]

Nor am I going to leave a CV here, but I moved here in November '04 at the age of 45 to retire. Am I happy, you bet you life I am! Would I have done things any other way? Yes, I should have done it when I was 41, I had the chance.

[Lollie]

Hi

We too left a good lifestyle/social life in a large city in the north of England.  Having holidayed in France for many years we dreamed of coming here to live.   We have now been here almost 4 years and have built up a social life not unsmilar to the one in the UK, with both french and international families.

The best advice given to us and taken, was,   why did we want to move to the countryside with teenage children?  Go near a town with lots of activities for them.  

If your children are used to country life no problem, but we choose a seaside resort, with large beach, cinema's, bowling, bars and disco's. School and friends all within cycling distance.

We love it, and when my 17 year old disco's until 4am I really dont have the same concerns as my friends with sons frequenting the town centres in the UK!!

Lollie

 

[Clarkkent]

Hi

Best of luck to you - you have been given some excellent advice.

One point to consider  ...  the weather.

SW France is in the same climate zone as the British Isles - it's just at its southern edge. It may be warmer when the sun shines but it gets just as much rain, drizzle and fog. Winters can be glorious, with warm cloudless days (though night-time temperatures my be -10) but they can also be cold and damp and grey and endless. And you don't see a soul from morning to night. Something else to consider about summer is the humidity which drains every last drop of energy from you.

[Llwyncelyn]

Cerise want to do some drafting of legal documents for me in that your approach is rock-solid feet on the ground and you say as is.  I absolutely agree with the medal but it must be gold.

 

rdgs

[Moorejw]

I agree with Jon's comments.

We wouldn't change a thing. We moved here nearly 5 years ago from busy, financially rewarding lives in the UK but totally stressed out. We have now built up a new business along with a new lifestyle. We don't earn as much, but we owe not a cent, and have a wonderful home, plenty of space for those chickens, ducks, geese etc. that we couldn't afford to keep in UK, and every summer we get to share it all with lots of visitors who enjoy the fruits of our labour (we have developed 3 gites on site) and many wish they could do the same thing.

Maybe one day we will retire, but if you look at your French neighbours who seem to live to 90+ what keeps them going? They never actually retire! Whether that is from choice or circumstances (they cannot afford to retire?) I don't know but they stay active and live longer. We do not envisage returning to the UK, but might move elsewhere in Europe to try and find milder winters - might take a look at Portugal in about 10 years time. I think unless you try it you will never know whether it is for you. Better to take a gamble than to spend the rest of your life regretting what might have been.

Good luck with your choice!

[Llwyncelyn]

No Miki I did not but to save money and to get through University I walked twelve miles a day to save on bus fares.  Also outside toilet no bathroom and Father dying of dust and then the coal board giving us £10 to bury him but only before he was ripped apart with a post mortem just to see if his lungs were black and I watched that.  Then a week later another letter from the NCB 'one less person in the household' you will now get less concessionary coal.

And before my Father died Miki swabbing his mouth out with bi carbonate of soda so he could breathe a bit easier.

Miki I have gone too far and I suggest as well and with respect you are getting very near to a subject of poverty and its effects of the human race that I know only too well.  I can give you lectures and will willingly do so.

You know with respect probably nothing of mining or steel communities in the 40's onwards be they in Durham Lancashire or Yorkshire.  Again I would think you would know nothing of Maggie in the miners strike when young Mums had to go to the system for money for nappies for their children.  Their official response use 'towels' or newspapers you should not have children when there is a strike on. You would know nothing of the devastation on the mining communities and which are no longer.

That is my absolute final outburst and I now think it is very appropriate if I no longer posted anything here on this forum for I have worn my heart on my sleeve and feel passionately over my birthright and upbringing.

 

Miki I could commend to you a work on the Civil Liberties Human Rights aspects of the Miners Strike of 1984/85 I cannot for it would be self-publicising but it is available in most libraries (UK of course)  I am looking a copy as I put this together.

[Frederick]

Radio 4  news this morning .........70.000 a year buying houses in Spain ....50.000 a year buying houses in France .....looks like with some ..anywhere.... is a better place to live than the UK at the moment ..." Living  " in France does not apply to me as I am one of the guys with a foot in both camps  who took three years to find my " bungalow " type property with  the right location ..in  the " micro climate "  close to the beaches of the South Vendee . Being retired ... I dont have the problems of earning a living ....but in the short time I have had the house in France I have seen for many finding work is not easy...In fact the people I bought my house from sold to me and went to live in Paris to get work . If I were living and working in the UK and  enjoying a good income I would not be inclined to give that up to find some better weather !   I am thinking frying pans and fires here .

[WJT]

No you are wrong Llwynelyn!  It would be inappropriate if you were to stop posting.

It is very interesting to hear of a persons background that posts on the forum.  Many of us on here have openly discussed our backgrounds and of course passions and beliefs (me probably more than most [:$]) it is a way of understanding, and the sort of posts by you and Cerise on this thread in my view, is what makes the forum interesting.

Please don't stop just because you showed passion about something that is important to you. I have a great deal of respect for what you have accomplished in your life despite all of your many obstacles and you have provided a great deal of insight.

[Bob T]

While I do not dispute ClarkeKents, view of the weather where he is, there are vast differences across the area. In the part of the Dordogne that I live, we don't seem to get the endless gray days that we were used to in the UK. The winters do have cold nights due to the clear sky, but that normally means that the next day will be sunny and warmer. The Dordogne is green in comparison to areas further south so we do get rain, but here it buckets down for a day or two and then we have weeks of warm sun.

If you are nearer the coast then you will get much more rain.

As a biker I find that I can use the bike all year round here and I was not able to do that inthe UK

[Miki]

Jeepers Llwyncelyn!!!

We all have our cross to bear. You did very well but there have been many worse off and better off, c'est la vie.

The cardboard box was a simple throw away line. The original post was not intended as a kick off  for let's see who was the poorest and hardest done by.

I am sorry you struggled, we were not exactly rolling in it either. My Father came out of the mines after another of his Brothers died down the mine and his Mother begged him to leave. So what happened next........well he joined the Army, then bosh, war broke out, so off to War..Dunkirk, in the water, in a boat, back in the water....shook for ever after the war and his time in the mines.

You really must not act or think that you are the only one that knew about poverty, the miners stikes and anything else, in fact you have taken far too big a liberty in accusing me of knowing nothing and commending books for me to read. I am a socialist, ask anyone on here !! I knew very well about the strikes and I did my bit during the Maggie era, albeit from afar, due to where I lived at the time, A good friend of mine here in France, was totally involved it all, in a big way. Any questions I don't have the answer to and I would like to know, comes from someone on the front line, so to speak.

Please, drop it, goodness knows why (the cardboard box I think !!) you decided this thread was the time to bring it all up after all, this was meant to be a thread about staying in France.

Apologies to pink specs.

[Teamedup]

We love France its culture its lifestyle and its France we do not come here to change their system.

 

Interesting Llwyncelyn, I wonder how many other people think that, but as soon as one is say in hospital and can't manage without english speaking staff then there is a change to their system.

Back to the question, would I have do the same again, well yes, but young again.  I wouldn't dream of living in a foreign country for my dotage and that is fast approaching and so I am not going to.

 

I don't know what this original poster wants or expects really. Doesn't take much reading of french papers, as restrained as they often are in telling it how it is, one can still see what is really happening in France. Our local rag had a wonderful headline this week. Suicide the biggest cause of death for a certain age bracket, wasn't surprised to see that and didn't pay too much attention but it certainly included people in their 30's. If life was wonderful all the time, why would that be then. 

France is just a country. There are parts of France I don't like geographically speaking. There are others where I wouldn't want to be because of the people, rude and very unfriendly........ which I suspect is what some think of me on here, but IRL I am a very friendly and helpful soul, well most of the time.[:)]

[Ormx]

i think it's the nature of forums to be honest.

i read a lot here when i was about to move, asked a few questions, answered a few, read about other people's experiences, found many to be negative, and stopped visiting the forum (just once in a while). i do think the negative comments have their place but when i try to respond with my positive take on the subject (in e.g. the education section) i'm shot down as not knowing enough yet! so i don't bother. i suspect a lot of people who are having a great life in france don't bother.

life for us is fabulous here. we came with no jobs and a good bit of capital. OH found a job after 3 months (but he is french) and i'm at home with the kids, getting to know the community, enjoying every day. we didn't hate ireland but hated the materialism there. we live a privileged life being able to visit the relations twice a year, being able to go skiing etc etc

if i were you I would sit down and write down why you love france, why you want to move, but also how you envisage yourselves at Move+1 month, Move+2 months, Move + 12 months (scenario 1: your business is booming, scenario 2: you haven't any income) etc etc  After you've balanced the pros and cons you can decide. You may not be able to control all of the circumstances around your move, but you can control your attitude.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

 Suicide the biggest cause of death for a certain age bracket, wasn't surprised to see that and didn't pay too much attention but it certainly included people in their 30's. If life was wonderful all the time, why would that be then. [/quote]

France also has the highest rate of teenage suicide in Europe, if I heard Sarko correctly last night.

[Miki]

And Brittany is high on that list and I would like a euro for every time I have heard or read, how laid back they all were here.

[Patf]

Llwyncelyn - don't stop posting - your views are a bit offbeat but very welcome as another point of view. And I quite understand your passion pro the coalminers as I grew up in a coalmining town - 16 pits at one time and now I think one is left. So my own socialist views. My family weren't miners but many of my friends were and often there was news of a death. But for the OP, we almost returned to the UK last Oct. when we sold our house, but the thing that swung it for us was the welfare of the animals. We have 2 lively border collies and just couldn't bear the idea of parting with them or forcing them to live in our tiny UK house/garden. So hanging on in here, quite happily for the time being as long as the health and money hold out. Like TU, we wouldn't want to spend our dotage here. Pat.