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Taxed to the Hilt!


Sashabel
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Thought this might be interesting and definitely worth considering if you are thinking of moving to France in the near future!

 

The top ten

The most tax-miserable countries (source: Forbes):

  • France

  • China

  • Belgium

  • Sweden

  • Italy

  • Austria

  • Poland

  • Spain

  • Argentina

  • Slovenia
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Just posted this in the Finance section, but then thought it should be listed here.  I suppose it's no surprise to those already living and trying to earn a living in France as Tax is one of the main topics of conversation amongst my Frech neighbours!

 

The top ten

The most tax-miserable countries (source: Forbes):

  • France

  • China

  • Belgium

  • Sweden

  • Italy

  • Austria

  • Poland

  • Spain

  • Argentina

  • Slovenia

And the most tax-friendly countries:

  • United Arab Emirates

  • Hong Kong

  • Cyprus

  • Georgia

  • Singapore

  • Russia

  • Taiwan

  • Thailand

  • South Africa

  • The Philippines
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Very strange that. When you take into  account Coucil Tax and Road Tax in the UK, and the fact that couples with one income pay less tax here, I would have thought that the UK was higher than France. Maybe that is just for my situation.

I used to pay around £1200 concil tax and now pay €410 euros for Habitation and Foncier.

I used to pay around £300 per annum road tax for 3 vehicles and now pay nothing.

I pay tax on my RAF pension in the UK, but if it were taxed in France I would pay nothing.

I used to buy my diesel for nearly 50% more in the UK because of tax, I now pay around 67 pence per liter.

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It would be interesting to know how   the comparison was made as every country has their own ideas as to making pipps squeak.  Is this the total tax burden or just the headline tax rate?. If all then a difficult job as there are many different rates on products you may or may not buy (eg booze, high in UK, not in France) and given the number of stealth taxes in the UK I'm surprised it didn't rate higher.
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Yes, it all depends what is included under the heading of 'taxes' and what examples are used - e.g. low-earning individual, high earners, companies etc. On the other hand France has wealth tax, CRD/CRDS, high inheritance taxes, higher TVA rates than Britain, and if NI is included in British income tax figures (which it almost always is) then the equivalent French charges should be included as well.

I think BobT has hit the nail on the head when he refers to 'pension' - if he was working, or an employer, I suspect his tone would be rather different. Anyway, his local taxes seem unusually low, and when he registers or replaces his three vehicles he will have a charge to pay for each carte grise. So everybody is different.

All tables like that prove really are that if you pick the right set of figures, you can draw whatever conclusion you like.

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bob t

thanks for coming up with some concrete comparisons.  i don't really know that much about it as we haven't moved over yet.

apart from the examples you have given, i am now much exercised by tax on investment income.  from advice and answers generously given by members of the forum, i am going to be making comparisons between uk based and france based investment (for capital growth) and see how i can minimise the tax burden

of course, inheritance tax is another thorny issue but i am hoping that i'll have some time to think about that one as i hope death is not (yet) imminent!

 

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Having been to Dubai recently there are people queuing round the block to live and work in the UAE. Not a place I would choose, but I can see the attraction if you have a lot of money. Russia is a good place to be rich, too, though less attractive for the poor now. And I didn't think anybody actually lived in the Philippines; aren't most of the men crewing ships and the women working as hotel maids? So it can't be that attractive, otherwise they would surely stay there.Perhaps it's like the Irish - there are far more of them outside their own country than in it. Now that's somewhere I could live very happily.
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Having looked into this a bit further, the table seems to be based on a notional happiness/misery index tax-wise of a US expatriate working in those countries, and his US corporate employer - i.e. high earners. Britain is about exactly half way down (or up - depending on your own outlook) the list.

The following were taken into account: corporate income, personal income, wealth tax, employer social security, employee social security and VAT/Sales taxes.

You can see the table here http://members.forbes.com/global/2005/0523/024chart.html and the accompanying article at http://members.forbes.com/global/2005/0523/024.html

It was published in 2005 so probably does not exactly reflect the most up to date situation - I was unable to find a more recent table.

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[quote user="Will"]

All tables like that prove really are that if you pick the right set of figures, you can draw whatever conclusion you like.

[/quote]

I seem to remember something along the lines of "Lies, more Lies and statistics"

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[quote user="Will"]

I think BobT has hit the nail on the head when he refers to 'pension' - if he was working, or an employer, I suspect his tone would be rather different. Anyway, his local taxes seem unusually low, and when he registers or replaces his three vehicles he will have a charge to pay for each carte grise. So everybody is different.

[/quote]

Too true, Will.

The only times I've ever heard France referred to as a low taxation country is when listening to or reading retired foreigners.  In fact, every French person I know complains about the level of taxation.

Strange that, me thinks. 

In terms of what you get for it, I think if you are retired or unemployed, probably quite a bit. However, if you have to make a living, not a great deal as far as I can see (the Health Service being the exception but even that's not free at source).

Val, I fully agree but we clearly still have to earn our crust, so boo hoo hoo to us[:(].

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Just a quick point of related info on something I've just discovered myself: 

If you live and work in France, work for a French firm and pay French tax then you can deduct a sum for your travel to and from your workplace, and your lunches if you don't have a subsidised canteen, from your final taxable income.

So for example you are allocated 4.10 euros per day for lunch to de deducted from your 'net montant imposable' on your December payslip. It won't get you much, but it helps pay for a sandwich!

In terms of transport, you multiply the return distance to your workplace by a number given on the 'bareme' on the back of the 'how to fill in your tax form' document that comes with your tax declaration form. You need to know the 'puissance fiscale' of your car, say 7cv, in order to work it out. You can also deduct all 'peage' bills for getting to work. You need to include a photocopy of your 'carte grise' as proof.

I know this because I had a chat with my tax office today. I got on the case because after 5 years of working here a colleague actually told me all of this was possible! You can ask for the last two years of tax declarations to be recalculated, so that's back to 2004's earnings at the moment as I understand it. All in all it doesn't seem much better or worse than the UK, just different.

 

 

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Tristanspeed it was always on your tax form. It's one of the abattements or claiming against mileage etc.

Income tax never was that expensive in France, generally the worst hit by it are single people. The taxes that make it all add up are on ALL other things and one way or another they come to a lot through out the year.

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[quote user="Will"]Having been to Dubai recently there are people queuing round the block to live and work in the UAE. Not a place I would choose, but I can see the attraction if you have a lot of money. .[/quote]

Living in the UAE I can second Will's comment above.

Yes, its tax free as far as income tax and VAT are concerned. It used to be a good place to work to save money but there have been dramatic changes in the last few years. The quality of life has reduced substantially. Whilst costs of living are (generally) lower than Europe in some respects. They are unreal in terms of accommodation. Anyone who has to pay their own rent needs to have a seriously high salary.

Utility bills are (or can be) a similar problem, due to the high consumption of electricity by aircon units.

Traffic is, quite honestly, horrendous and has led to worrying levels of air pollution in the cities - a fact not mentioned by the Authorities.

We would leave tomorrow if I could get a job elsewhere (trying, but age is a major factor)

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[quote user="Will"]

The following were taken into account: corporate income, personal income, wealth tax, employer social security, employee social security and VAT/Sales taxes.

[/quote]

Thanks for looking this up.  That means that the rating given is totally useless for any one of those kinds of taxes and for any one family or individual.  I would much prefer to see a rating for taxes as they effect poor people, middling people and well off people.  Others might like to see how taxes affect small businesses.  Others might like to know about taxes and retired people. 

I really love tables, but you have to check what they mean, and not just publish overall figures composed of complicated information collated in some intricate way.   Just allows people who move to or live in France to continue to moan about taxes, while rather enjoying all the fringe benefits they bring.

The other thing that woud be good would be to campare that table with some other information like life expectancy, or GNP per capita, or literacy rate, so see waht the effect of high or low taxes might be.  Then things get interesting.

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[quote]I would much prefer to see a rating for taxes as they effect poor people, middling people and well off people.[TreizeVents][/quote]

www.nationmaster.com is very good and covers that. From this page

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_as_of_gdp-taxation-total-as-of-gdp

you can drill down into each country to fnd the %take for the poorest 30%, middle 40% and richest 30%.

There are other goodies there as well.

PS. It seems that usng Firefox (as I usually do on this site) results in links appearing as plain text rather than links.

link activated by a mod
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I work for myself in France and am in receipt of Emploi PPE which is paid into our bank each month. Seems I did not earn enough so they are topping me up...

Total shock but a nice one as I have only been working part time due to ill-health. It comes from the details on your tax form, ours was filled in by a French accountant.

I personally find France much cheaper but then I always was known as Scrooge.

I also now get my UK OAP - only 8p short of the max. Cor, I am rolling in it. [:-))]

I used to teach statistics and the only one I can find that is universally accepted is that France has the highest work output and works the least hours for any EEC country and US.

Sorry if this is a bit garbled - just had a tooth out, the anesthetic has made me a bit wobbly.

Di

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We moved here some years ago to set up a business which has been very successful and now  pay approximately 50% of our income to the state in the various forms of taxation/cotisation etc. Our combiined foncière and habitation exceeds €2000 per year for a modest property in a small market town, more than our end of terrace in Cornwall.  
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  • 1 month later...

My one man Internet business in the UK pays abou t 40% corporation/income/NI.  It also generates a great deal of VAT.   

I thought a small business in France would pay 20-30% more than one in the UK.  I could live with your 50% including cotisations, but 60-70% income + cotisations etc etc is too much for me to swallow. 

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[quote user="Iceni"]

I used to teach statistics and the only one I can find that is universally accepted is that France has the highest work output and works the least hours for any EEC country and US.

[/quote]

But again, that's not in a vacuum.  There are fewer people in work in France than in some other countries, and those few have to get a whole lot done in 35 hours, so productivity looks good.  The price you pay for that is lower wages and higher unemployment.

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