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How can UK companies come and work in France temporarily?


Abbaye
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... for example, say, a UK roofing contractor .... if he has an offer of working on a house in France ... how do you legally do it?  Can you just trot over, bring a couple of labourers, and off you go?  Invoice the client, who presumably would be English (say its their holiday home) and so they can write you a UK cheque to pay your invoice.

I know a lot of people do it and just wonder how - just cant be that simple?!

What about insurance?  Would your UK professional indemnity insurance cover you?

Anyone done this or know about it?

Thanks

Abbaye

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How about a person who lives in France all the time, works in France as an artisan, and puts the accounts through the books of a limited company he has had in uk for many years? Is this possible to set up legally? Not us, I hasten to add.
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You see all the time in the UK so and so company (Polish, or Ukranian, or whatever) has come over and won a contract to build x y z building .... there must be some sort of international arrangement under which to take on temporary contracts that run a limited period?
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[quote user="Abbaye"]You see all the time in the UK so and so company (Polish, or Ukranian, or whatever) has come over and won a contract to build x y z building .... there must be some sort of international arrangement under which to take on temporary contracts that run a limited period?[/quote]

What you have to realise is that France is France and it is really strict on its rules for artisans. In the UK almost anybody can arrive and set up and work. There are many Poles entering the country perfectly legally and setting up building companies. Prices are so high for UK labour that they can easily undercut and are having a lot of success!

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[quote user="Patf"]How about a person who lives in France all the time, works in France as an artisan, and puts the accounts through the books of a limited company he has had in uk for many years? Is this possible to set up legally? Not us, I hasten to add.[/quote]

Buidling is a regulated trade, requiring registration. Registration involves paying social charges in France. Ergo, if one registers in France, one pays charges in France. "They" could, of course do all their accounts via the UK, but HMRC would not be interested in taking any money off them, as the money was not earned within their jurisdiction. Even if they did, then "they" would end up paying NI charges twice (no double taxation agreement to cover those) and corporation tax rates are higher in the UK than France, so they would end up paying more. Why would they do it?

And to answer Abbayes question about Polish builders, essentially, XYZ company sets up a French company SARL XYZ or whatever, or sets up a "branch" of XYZ Polski Ltd in France. This employs the "migrant" workers. Mr Pole, working as an individual must jump through the same hoops as the rest of us.

 

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Also, because building (for example) is a regulated trade, you MUST be qualified in France.

It's illegal to register, for example, as an interior designer (no formal qualifications required in France) and then to perform work as a painter and decorator( formal qualifications required in France). 

Why can't people just stick to the (French) law? What is it about the British immigrants here that makes them think they can flout the law?  It makes me so cross!!!!!

I personally know of several people who have internet companies registered as limited companies in England, but who live and work in France. While they pay cotisations andtax here they flout the law as regards qualifications by registering as something different here. ( For example one local ladyworks as an internet estate agent while registered in France as giving management advice to companies). The problem is that when you complain to the authorities they aren't anxious to follow it up because the person is paying into the system!  How can you win?

Sorry, on my soap box again!!

I'm going for a drink,

Aly

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There seems to have been a lack of definitive answer here. I have a long established company in the UK.  Surely under European law I can carry out short term contracts in France or for that matter anywhere else in the EU?. Just because I may not have recognised French qualifications does not mean that I am not qualified to carry out the work. ( I can understand the need for French qualifications for full time or long term employment)

 Equally being taxed in the UK does not mean you are attempting tax evasion in France (If you're ligit).

 I realise that warranties/certification etc, especially now may be a problem. Maybe that is why France has just introduced this for any major works.  I'd like to say I haven't and don't intend to do work in France - It's just Hypothetical

I would have thought that there would be a restriction of trade issue here. For example how would  the architect who designed the Millau bridge have got round it - he has UK based company?

I'd be interested in hearing from someone that can give a definitive answer to this.

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This is exactly the angle I am coming from Smiley (not, as it seems from Charlotte3's comments - she seems to think I am intending to come over here as an immigrant and work on the black "flouting the law".  I am actually a fully registered consultant here in France doing very well for myself thank you).

Its a hypothetical question.

For example, if you were as you say an architect, or engineer or any other person with a level of speciality in your trade.  I believe professional indemnity insurance will cover such a person to work in their home country and in any EU country up to a period of, say, 12 months.   

If anyone has any definitive answer to this question please let us know but if not I will drop the subject - its not that important anyway - was just curious and certainly was no need for anyone to get on their soapboxes about.

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I'd be interested to know the answer too as I know of a team of German builders who are working locally.  They are very open and I don't think illegal but the architect says they are not registered here and don't have to be.  They are not doing loads of work in France, just one job.

Charlotte, I understand why you feel miffed, but I also think that many EU citizens feel - not unreasonably - that if they are registered/qualified to do something in their own country it does seem a tad unreasonable that they cannot legally and easily do so in France when a French citizen going in the other direction would not have the same problems.  The French obsession with FRENCH qualifications (Bac + 2 for supermarket cashier??!) does make it very difficult for people to work however willing and able they are to do so.

 

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[quote user="Smiley"]

There seems to have been a lack of definitive answer here.

[/quote]

Eh? The OP mentioned a roofer and that is what I was talking about - definatively.

Sir Norman Foster is not a roofer - as an Architect, he can (and does) design things wherever he chooses - the regulations are completely different. However, the company who built the Millau bridge was Spanish (I believe) - but they must have had a French "arm" to enable them to carry out the work.

And don't start going on about "free movement of goods and services". Read the appropriate treaties and then come back to us.

If you want more definative, talk to the French authorities. There is no confusion or lack of definition here.

 

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[quote user="nicktrollope"][quote user="Smiley"]

There seems to have been a lack of definitive answer here.

[/quote]

Eh? The OP mentioned a roofer and that is what I was talking about - definatively.

Sir Norman Foster is not a roofer - as an Architect, he can (and does) design things wherever he chooses - the regulations are completely different. However, the company who built the Millau bridge was Spanish (I believe) - but they must have had a French "arm" to enable them to carry out the work.

And don't start going on about "free movement of goods and services". Read the appropriate treaties and then come back to us.

If you want more definative, talk to the French authorities. There is no confusion or lack of definition here.

 

[/quote]

Nick, I don't see the need for a stroppy answer or telling people to off and read up on something, this is a public forum where people can ask for advice. I think if you look back at your previous reply, you quoted someone who referred to living in France and putting work through the UK, this is not what Abbaye or my posting referred to.

 

 

 

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[quote user="Charlotte3"]

Also, because building (for example) is a regulated trade, you MUST be qualified in France.

[/quote]

Can you qualify your statement: MUST be qualified in France. How? What do you believe are the qualifications required for a painter / decorator to set up a French registered / insured business?

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Hi

To add to this, if I order say a stable block from a EU based specialist company they can quite legally come here and erect it for me, this does go on and I'm 'fairly' confident it is legal, why wouldn't it be? 

This is a real case, not for me sadly I'd love a single stable never mind a block, but anywho, the local french riding stables have done just this with loads of huge American barn type affairs and a huge chalet.  All delivered and erected by Polish builders in their polish lorries.  They have all the planning etc. of course so why not?  It could hardly be said to be being done discreetly, it's huge and the workers are not resident, they arrived just for the build and work for the company which makes the buildings.

Now I think about this goes on quite a lot on Grand Designs, or some such program where huge cuboid buildings arrive on a lorry form Germany etc.

Panda

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[quote user="Smiley"][quote user="nicktrollope"][quote user="Smiley"]

There seems to have been a lack of definitive answer here.

[/quote]

Eh? The OP mentioned a roofer and that is what I was talking about - definatively.

Sir Norman Foster is not a roofer - as an Architect, he can (and does) design things wherever he chooses - the regulations are completely different. However, the company who built the Millau bridge was Spanish (I believe) - but they must have had a French "arm" to enable them to carry out the work.

And don't start going on about "free movement of goods and services". Read the appropriate treaties and then come back to us.

If you want more definative, talk to the French authorities. There is no confusion or lack of definition here.

 

[/quote]

Nick, I don't see the need for a stroppy answer or telling people to off and read up on something, this is a public forum where people can ask for advice. I think if you look back at your previous reply, you quoted someone who referred to living in France and putting work through the UK, this is not what Abbaye or my posting referred to.

 

[/quote]

If you (or anyone) keeps asking the same tired old questions, then what esle can I (or Val or anyone else who actually knows), do? Frankly, it matters not one jot to me if "Panda" (or anyone else)  buys a stable block without any form of warranty, built by a company that contributes nothing to the French economy or training French kids to become stable-block-builders..

What really pisses me off is when I lose electrical work to obviously unregistered lethal crooks, mainly because their "clients" are, or prefer to, remain, ignorant of how it "works", here.

One day, I am going to start reporting illegal workers around here and the people that employ them - it is so easy to find them via this and other sites. Do you beileve that the authorities don't use AI-B to trace black workers? I do.

 

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Nick wrote: "What really pisses me off is when I lose electrical work to obviously unregistered lethal crooks, mainly because their "clients" are, or prefer to, remain, ignorant of how it "works", here.

One day, I am going to start reporting illegal workers around here and the people that employ them - it is so easy to find them via this and other sites. Do you beileve that the authorities don't use AI-B to trace black workers? I do."

Well said Nick!

Incidentally, France is not obsessed with "French" qualifications, France is obsessed with European qualifications. Britain is out of step with the rest of Europe, not the other way round. Just because Britain allows any Tom, Dick or Harry to work in skilled occupations without qualifications, why should France? 

I don't "think" I know what qualifications are required to work in France as a painter and decorator, I KNOW what qualifications are required. Anyone can find the information if they look for it, it is freely available! Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Aly 

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Oh dear, what has happened to these forums ..... there used to be a sense of community and people bouncing questions off each other whilst they mutually learned how to settle into their new lives .....

I fear that somewhere along the way that has been lost.  I shan't waste my time any more ... I will just continue to do as I normally do and work hard to make an honest living in a country  that I am still learning about ... I shall just have to look elsewhere for the answers  ....

Perhaps this forum should be divided into two sections .... those who are new and have lots of untired questions to ask and those that have been around for a while and who know everything ......

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"What really pisses me off is when I lose electrical work to obviously unregistered lethal crooks, mainly because their "clients" are, or prefer to, remain, ignorant of how it "works", here.

One day, I am going to start reporting illegal workers around here and the people that employ them - it is so easy to find them via this and other sites. Do you beileve that the authorities don't use AI-B to trace black workers? I do."

 

Nick, no one is implying that they want to employ, or indeed work, illegally.   I am a fully qualified spark myself (in the UK) and realise that the French regulations and methods are completely different. I for one would not consider carrying out any work without complying with the countries laws. The reason I am asking personally is that we now live in a European Union with completely different work treaties to the old days. It would be interesting to find out what is allowed and what is not.

I fully understand your frustrations about people working on the black but that is not what this thread was aimed at.

 

I've just found this little bit of information:

There are two types of permit for France:

Temporary Secondment:

This is for a non French company which needs to place their employees on it's client's site in France. This can be applied for by the foreign company but needs the full co-operation of the French client. The seconded employee must remain in the employ, pay, and line management of the foreign service provider. The maximum duration of these permit is 18 months and may then be extended for a further 9 months.

Full Work Permit

This is applied for by an established French company who wish to directly employ a non-EEA national. The candidate must be a full time employee and paid in France in Francs or Euros. There is no time limit on this permit.

 

So it seems that there is nothing illegal on the employment front provided you have the correct permits. It looks like a real minefield. There seems to be very specific requirements to qualify for the permits including a minimum wage. I doubt very much if it would be worth all the hassle unless it was a very large contract. I cannot find anything about actual qualifications but it is part of the application for a permit.  

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[quote user="Charlotte3"]

I don't "think" I know what qualifications are required to work in France as a painter and decorator, I KNOW what qualifications are required. Anyone can find the information if they look for it, it is freely available! Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[/quote]

Charlotte, reasoned arguments are one thing... stroppy soapboxing another. It isn't attractive or particularly productive especially, as Abbaye says above, these forums were for assistance and guidance but nowadays there does seem to be a surfeit of petulance. As it happens, I'm totally anti- the non-registered, non-insured route. To me, it's a no-brainer: people doing work on that basis are commiting fraud and I would not employ them or - obviously - trust a word they said.

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One of the things as a newcomer to having a home in France I find strange is whenever I employ sombody to do work for me ....if  I should mention I have had so and so  done or put in ....the first question I am asked is "Who did you get to do it ? " the next question will be "Where did you buy the materials "  this questioning I find most off putting ...as I get the feeling that people automatically think that being Brittish I am going to ship a gang of blokes over in a truck load of stuff from B&Q or Jewsons . The agent I bought the house from was one for example who questioned me and only seemed satisfied with my answer when I  obviously knew the name of the plumber in the village ......my house in Dorset will need some new fencing soon and I am planning to get a local company to do it .....I bet I am not asked who I got to do the work or where the panels were made !

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I don't understand why everyone is so het up.  The question is not whether anyone wants to work illegally - we certainly don't and like you Nick it is not great if you are paying everything and you see others not doing so.  But I am genuinely curious to know the route that others (who I don't believe are working illegally) take.  We seem to jump through hoops, earn peanuts and try hard to do as we should and watch others come along and 'apparently' do things in a much easier way.  There may indeed be a much easier way and if we don't ask we'll never know, will we?

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Frankly I am furious that my original question has brought about threats of reporting people to the authorities and other such ridiculously out of context comments ..... it is verging on defamation and actually rather worrying.

No more from me .......

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