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Might be moving to France


markspence
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I wish people wouldn't try to directly compare cotisations, taxes etc in Britain and France, it's not comparing like with like. What I suppose you can do is to look at the compulsory payments for a small business, then decide what you might want to add on (like a top up insurance in France or private heath care and personal pension in Britain) to come up with a comparison for you.

From our experience, of employment and self-employment in France and Britain, the basic charges are definitely higher in France. Our accountant in France always says that it's the taxable income that you have to look at. With a micro business in France, that's more or less fixed, in Britain or under French regime réel, there's considerable scope for creative accounting. In France you have to reckon on 46% of taxable income going out on the various cotisations - then, depending on your circumstances, there may be some tax to pay subsequently. In Britain you reckon on something in the region of 25% of taxable income going on tax and NI, which are collected together. Of course, when you get into higher rate taxation bands things are different, but that's not we are concerned with here.

So that makes France look like a non-starter, and it cannot be denied that the system in France makes it particularly hard to start up a business whereas in Britain there is a lot more financial incentive. But when you add the extras so the comparisons become closer, the differential is considerably less.

From experience it is certainly possible to run a business in France, but you cannot afford to set your rates too low, even if that means black marketeers will undercut you. Financially and bureaucratically, it is certainly less onerous to start and run a small enterprise in Britain.

Because of the higher French charges then working the accounts to your advantage is even more important in France than in Britain, and even for a small turnover it can, with a good accountant, prove more economic to go for the réel than the micro. But despite this most British automatically opt for the micro and are more reluctant to use an accountant that they might be at home. Of course, the micro suits a lot of businesses, but not all by any means.

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No, basically a journalist. Married to an estate agent, who used to be a tax inspector (but who has apirations to serve on the local council in France). We just need to add in traffic warden and dentist and we'll have all the most hated professions in the same family.

[:D] [;-)]

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[quote user="Will"]

I wish people wouldn't try to directly compare cotisations, taxes etc in Britain and France, it's not comparing like with like.

.......

In France you have to reckon on 46% of taxable income going out on the various cotisations - then, depending on your circumstances, there may be some tax to pay subsequently. In Britain you reckon on something in the region of 25% of taxable income going on tax and NI, which are collected together. Of course, when you get into higher rate taxation bands things are different, but that's not we are concerned with here.[/quote]

I'm running my own Ltd company and paying myself a reasonable salary (not minimum wage + divis because that way IR35 lies) and leaving as much as possible in the business. Ignoring any higher rate tax, I'm forking over 43.8% of my taxable earnings in Tax and NI. That's 20% (from April '08) tax + 11% personal NI + 12.8% employer's contribution. Not a lot different from France.

I know that if I was operating as a sole trader I could reduce my NI considerably, but in my industry you can't get work as a sole trader.

Where I do see a huge difference between the two countries is the ease of starting a small business and only paying tax & NI on what you actually earn. Then there's the simplicity of having a single collecting agency rather than all the weird acronyms to choose from in La Belle.

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[quote user="Will"]

No, basically a journalist. Married to an estate agent, who used to be a tax inspector (but who has apirations to serve on the local council in France). We just need to add in traffic warden and dentist and we'll have all the most hated professions in the same family.

[:D] [;-)]

[/quote]

I'm related to five (FIVE) lawyers. Always describe myself as the white sheep of the family.

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[quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"][quote user="Will"]

No, basically a journalist. Married to an estate agent, who used to be a tax inspector (but who has apirations to serve on the local council in France). We just need to add in traffic warden and dentist and we'll have all the most hated professions in the same family.

[:D] [;-)]

[/quote]

I'm related to five (FIVE) lawyers. Always describe myself as the white sheep of the family.

[/quote]

Albert,

could this be regarded as a material fact in, you being a free man?

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Hello again everyone. I continue to read with amazement the input that everyone has made. Ian and Steve made a couple of points that have a particular resonance with me. I don't necessarily want to earn my fortune, as i don't really have much reason to do that these days. Wife and kids have all departed. I think i'm looking for a decent quality of life following a dream that has been around for maybe 15 years in the back of my mind.

The wish for a bit of freedom. Money isn't the be all and end all of my argument, as i want to earn enough to sustain a modest but better quality of lifestyle. Costs for one aren't massive, so a huge income isn't actually the answer to my problem. I don't want to be hand to mouth, but i'm not chasing riches beyond my wildest dreams.Hence the original thought about a small house, 1 or 2 bedrooms, and the income to pay for my food and wine bill.as well as the taxes etc.

I agree about the hard work aspect of the discussion, and i'm not afraid of that, but i'd like to strike a better balance between the work and leisure aspect of my life. i think life in england offers you less chance of that these days, and i know that the french attitude to life always seems so much more balanced in that respect. Now that i don't have anyone other than myself to please, (not by choice) I suppose it's a bit of "me" time.

Thank you all once again, and i will continue to read all of your comments and advice with immense interest.

Regards

Mark

 

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Ahh, there you hit the nail on the head! I have NEVER had such a hectic social life! Today for example, I was down at the village hall for the village Belote competition - 46 teams! (there are only 300 or so residence in the comune!) Dont belive it, I cant play, but was behind the bar! They are still there suppin' but my doggies needed a wee! Dawn & I are so very busy not only with work - early Feb for example we were entertaining or being entertained 9 nights out of 14. Its too much! Cant wait for the BBQ season to start - I BBQ almost every night, and 2 or 3 times a week we have people (neighbours who cant resist the aroma) call to give us eggs, or tell a us a bit of gossip and end up staying! For Dawns 40th we had 50 people to a lamb roast we did in the garden - 14th April ! - it was cold but copius amounts of vino and a patio heater sorted that! The only trouble with this hectic social life is in the summer, we are burning the candle at both ends, but as we are seasonal, we can catch up with rest from October to March - hibernation!

Follow your dream, be prepared for some uphill struggles, but, if your determined, its worth it!

Good Luck

Steve

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Mark,

My situation is similar to yours, but I'm older with less capital so the details are different. I've calculated that I need a couple more years pulling in the pennies before I move, but I'm doing as much as I can towards it now.

You definitely need to look at the French rules on things like minimum income and health cover, unless you can line up a job before moving to France. Then there's the whole set of decisions about where to go, whether to rent or buy and suchlike.

One thing to do is browse the French estate agent sites to see what you can expect to get in different regions.  Unfortunately cheap property tends to go with poor job prospects, but if you are prepared to have a tiny house with no garden there is still stuff available for under £40,000 in some areas. Try looking in the regions a bit inland from the Atlantic coast.

Try http://www.logic-immo.com/ for property all over France. To identify departements (equivalent to counties) you'll probably find http://www.drimmo.com/carte.php useful.

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