Jump to content

TRADACTEUR ANGLAIS


caroline
 Share

Recommended Posts

[quote user="bixy"]I spent sixteen years teaching English as a foreign language, including a year in Italy. I never used the students' own languages and I taught students from complete beginner to advanced. How is it done? - take a TEFL training course and you will find out! As a matter of fact I am currently teaching a student in France and I do use French but I find more often than not it gets in the way. The point being that often there are no direct translations and what one is trying to do is to create an English environment where students think how to express themselves in English rather than form sentences in French and then convert them into English.

To answer the OP's original question, what you need is the Franklin Larousse electronic dictionary. This is a superb little machine that provides not only translations but also sentence examples. It will also provide you with all the verb conjugations and has a number of other features. Although I have a large Collins Robert I seldom need to use it as this little machine nearly always give me what I want. About five years ago it cost me about 60 pounds and has been worth every penny. Have a search on the internet.

Good luck with your teaching.

Patrick
[/quote]

http://www.portabletechnology.co.uk/english-french-translator-dictionary-bfq-450-4246-0.html

Is this the right thing?

I am thinking of getting one for my OH birthday which is coming up soon...and guess what I can use it too

thanks for info

Link to comment
Share on other sites

totally agree about communciation being the most important thing - have a go, make a pig's ear of it, have a laugh, who cares... I totally agree with you. So it depends on who you teach, at what level and for what purpose. Same with learning the violin or whatever. And of course it depends on  the desired outcome for the learner- and if getting a beer or buying a chicken, or ordering a meal - never mind the tense, preceeding direct object, blablabla. Totally agree. Personally after that initital input, I want to go further and understand how the whole thing works, and how to use it effectively- and as a teacher, professionally.

If you've ever read translations for the use of electrical equipment from Taiwan, you will see why the use of a dictionary without the skills required is a complete nonsense.

OH driving over to Switzerland with future bro in law - getting married (to me poor soul) the day after arrival. 2 am, headlights breakdown - find garage, closed of course- looks in his mini dictionary for 'lights' - finds have you got a light = avez-vous des allumettes. So quickly works it out in his head and rings the bell. Shutters open - string of abuse from bedroom window- so he explains  'je deviens marie demain- mais mes grandes allumettes sont cassees' - more abuse - but the guy comes down, repairs the lights and on they go. So it worked and he got there without his head punched in- a success story. 38 years so far!  But it made him realise he wanted to become more efficient- so he got a good dictionary, and I taught him how to use it effectively. After 38 years he still has a strong accent and of course he still makes mistakes - but he still enjoys learning and perfecting, despite the fact he is not a linguist (in the classical sense) - In Italian I am still at the stage where I just get on with it- and results can be very funny - a good way to make friends actually. The more mistakes you make, the more they love you for trying. But next year I will begin an A'Level course- because it's fascinating to really get to grips with a language- and I will use a good dictionary that will properly explain context and register. I will ensure I get a teacher who will speak totally in Italian, but who will have a good knowledge of French or German or English- so we can discuss differences of use. It makes it so much more interesting. When I taught children whose language was totally unknown to me, we sometimes made simple word to word translations on the board so we could see how word order can change from one language to another. They found it really interesting, and so did I.

Caroline, Good Luck with your teaching. does any of this make any sense to you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

allanb

I used to be a partner in a language school. I get the feeling that you are expressing a lay opinion that is at variance with the professional opinion of all the language teachers who have posted.

Just for information, my OH started her language career teaching French at Berlitz (one of the biggest language training outfits in the world at the time) and they had a rigid policy of not allowing teachers to use anything except the target language. The training rooms were bugged and it was a disciplinary offence if the monitor heard a teacher use the student's native language. They still sell this approach as the core 'Berlitz Method'.

http://www.berlitz.co.uk/about_berlitz/berlitz_method/

A year or so after she started there I met a senior manager who had learnt German from scratch at Berlitz on an intensive course. He told me that by the end of the course he was confident enough to address a conference in German, complete with a dirty joke.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Albert, couldn't agree more. To respond to allanb's points. First, what level can students reach being only taught in the target language? Well, many of the students I taught [using only English] passed the highest level Cambridge exams: the Advanced and the Proficiency and by that time they were pretty well fluent. Your other question: is that the limit of my ambition? - absolutely not - it is sometimes the limit of my tired old mental faculties!

To answer cowoman's question - yes, that is the machine in question  - I notice that it is  now a lot cheaper. Your OH won't be disappointed.

Patrick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]I used to be a partner in a language school. I get the feeling that you are expressing a lay opinion...

[/quote]

Yes, it's a "lay" opinion, in the sense that I've never been a professional teacher.  However, for many years in industry I did business in four languages (including English) and I can claim a lot of practical experience in situations where people's ability in another language has been important: not just ability to take part in classroom conversation, but competence to negotiate and explain commercial contracts, write financial reports, instruct staff in safe operating procedures, etc, and maybe to communicate with a boss who doesn't speak a word of your language.  Of course, they didn't all have the same degree of competence on day one, so a lot of language instruction took place on the job.

Having done a lot of that, I'm convinced that as a teacher you can do a better and quicker job of improving a student's ability in a foreign language if you understand the student's mother tongue.   I am not saying you have to use it; in fact, the less you use it, the better.  I think we're all agreed on that.  But if you understand it, you can often detect that he's having difficulty in expressing something because he's trying a construction that doesn't exist in English, or that he's been misled by a faux ami, or that he's said something in English that isn't quite what he meant.  In a classroom this may not matter much, but if you're in a business meeting where it's essential that the parties understand each other accurately, it can be important.

I'm not criticizing Berlitz and similar institutions.  I've never attended a Berlitz course, but I've used some of their material and I think it's very good.  But if you're running a class for 15 or 20 people who may speak half-a-dozen languages between them, you can't expect a teacher to understand all of them.  And anyway, if one of them was Russian and you allowed the teacher to use Russian in the class, you would be wasting the time of everyone who didn't speak Russian.  So the Berlitz rules are perfectly sensible, in their context.

Unfortunately the only way to settle this debate would be to do some kind of comparative test of results, and I have no idea how you would organize that.  Apart from anything else, you would have to start with a test group of students of equal learning ability, and that would be difficult to find.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


my son attended a summer school course in Geneva last year to see if he liked the school before we signed him up permenently.There was NO English spoken at all in the month that he was there.Unfortunetly there wasnt enough kids his age ....so he didnt go there permenently.He came home with a massive folder of work with mostly ticks for good work in it and seemed to have got to grips with the language.He was at an awkward age at 15 but says the teaching, athough very strict compared with UK schools was excellent.They told me that after a year of this he would have a good understanding of French.He says the teacher used to get incensed if he said Je suis instead of jai ,and she would throw something across the room Its a shame he didnt carry on with it but at that age,you have to be sure that you are doing the right thing by your kids.I am pleased to say he has just got 7 As in his GCSEs so I am gad that we carried on with the English school in the UK.It was a sacrifice for us but it has been worth it.........We wil be abe to live in France one day I hope!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allanb,

Just to clarify, the Berlitz policy of 'target language only' is rigidly applied even in 1:1 lessons.

My language school specialised in industrial-strength language training for business and government executives. Some of the clients were Intel, Kent County Council's Brussels liaison team (plus the Chief Exec), The Natural Resources Institute (providing consultancy to third world countries) and a number of firms with extensive dealings with foreign customers. These were people who relied on the language skills they learned to achieve real business results.

I won't bother to follow this thread further as you are clearly certain that your gut feeling is more accurate than the informed experience of a number of experienced language teachers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]I won't bother to follow this thread further as you are clearly certain that your gut feeling is more accurate than the informed experience of a number of experienced language teachers.[/quote]That's an unpleasant comment, and it's not justified.

In the first place, my opinion is no more a "gut feeling" than yours is, unless you have some comparative measure of results.  Professional teaching is not the only kind of experience.

In the second place, I'm not "certain" about the use of the student's language in teaching, and I don't think I ever said I was.  I am indeed convinced that it's better if the teacher understands the student's language, for the reasons I stated.  You haven't commented on this.  It would be interesting to know whether your school, or Berlitz, aims to select teachers who understand the student's language, or prefers those who do not.

In any case, if you have evidence that your students finished up speaking their target language better than others taught differently, tell us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The attached French instructions were scanned in, grammar and spelling checked, then translated using one of the better computer programs.

 

The Anti Bindweeds of Fertilgene eliminates the bindweeds, thistles, dandelions, plantains and other bad grass has sheets broad of the family of the dicotyledonous: buttercup, amaranth, chenopod. Be used on lawn by respecting the graminaceous ones (composing the grass) on the grounds not cultivate (given in possible culture 4 A 6 weeks after the treatment) and with the foot of the fruit trees

 

Mode of action Systemic action weeding It penetrates in the sheets at the time of the treatment then is vehicu1e by the sap to the roots. The synthesis of proteins of the plant is blocked: this one reddens, yellows then fades and finally is desiccated completely into 3 A 4 weeks.

 

When to use it?  To treat in soft weather and calms (between 12 and 20 degree centigrade), one day without rain. Can apply to grass starting from the 2nd cut and at least 3 days after a shearing.

 

Preparation of the pulp:

To dilute the amount in a little toilets.

To mix and supplement with the volume off toilets necessary.

To wait at least 4 days after the treatment to mow the grass again.

To avoid any projection on IE foliage of the crop plants.

Not to use on edible plants (not to pulverize on brambles carrying of the fruits).

In the event of strong infestation or of bad fatty push back

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello

I just want to say thank you all very much for your intersting and helpful comments. I have hardly had time to read them ! but I will soon, and I am really grateful for your help, and I shall probably buy all the electronic traducteur's you suggest, (well possibly)

Carol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I teach French, EFL and ESOL. I've just read this thread. I don't think I'd better get up and go to work tomorrow. In the morning, I've got to teach business English to a Japanese HR Manager, then later in the day, business French to an American HR manager. In the evenings, from next week, I'll be teaching a beginners' and an intermediate ESOL class. Judging by the enroliing students I met last week, my classes will be made up of people from countries as diverse as Azerbaijan and Venezuela, with the mandatory Poles, Sri Lankans and a sprinkling of assorted other Europeans. Probably better take a rain check whilst I brush up on a few new languages, then......

Incidentally, I've also worked (in sales roles) in about 40-odd countries, and have run training sessions where I've had people doing roleplays in their native language (Kiswahili) and where I've trained an entire sales force through an interpreter (Vietnamese), or in English where English was not the language of the trainees (Eritrean). I can't really agree that, whether teaching or training, or indeed conducting business negotiations, it's vital to understand what people mean to the nth degree. Behaviour and body language play a part, as does a certain amount of (technical) understanding of the subject you're discussing, and a creative approach to understanding and being understood.

I'm no smartarse, and I don't claim to be Michel Thomas either, but my students seem pretty satisifed with their own progress and exam results, and, like one of the previous posters, I've often found that when I can speak the L1 of the learner, it's done more harm than good.

Sorry,Caroline....hope your job goes well. [:$]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My children learned to speak French by immersion.  They lived in French families for 6 months.  It took them one month to start to understand a few things, three months to understand everything and the full 6 months to speak French.  When they returned to the UK, they could not translate from English to French or vice versa.  They have never learned to translate.  There is no need - they speak both languages fluently without thinking about it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I teach French, EFL and ESOL. I've just read this thread. I don't think I'd better get up and go to work tomorrow. In the morning, I've got to teach business English to a Japanese HR Manager, then later in the day, business French to an American HR manager... [/quote]

How clever you must be. 

However - [quote]...my students seem pretty satisfied with their own progress and exam results...[/quote]

That proves nothing.  I might buy a Ford car and be pretty satisfied with it; but that wouldn't prove that a Ford is better than any other make.

The only way to settle this argument would be to take two groups of students of equal linguistic ability, taught by two groups of teachers of equal teaching skills, and subject them to a test universally accepted as a standard of competence; the only difference being that one group of teachers understands the students' mother tongue and the other doesn't.  I wouldn't know how to arrange that; would you? 

By the way, I didn't say that it was "vital" for the teacher to understand the student's mother tongue.  I said it was more efficient.  Let's take an example: your post implies that you don't speak Japanese.  How do you test your Japanese HR manager's ability to write an enforceable employment contract in English?  How would you know that the contract really imposes the conditions that he intended?  You would need a bilingual intermediary: and how would you test his competence? 

   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]I teach French, EFL and ESOL. I've just read this thread. I don't think I'd better get up and go to work tomorrow. In the morning, I've got to teach business English to a Japanese HR Manager, then later in the day, business French to an American HR manager... [/quote]

How clever you must be. 

[/quote]

And how condescending you are.

[quote user="allanb"]

By the way, I didn't say that it was "vital"

for the teacher to understand the student's mother tongue.  I said it

was more efficient.  Let's take an example: your post implies that you

don't speak Japanese.  How do you test your Japanese HR manager's

ability to write an enforceable employment contract in English?  How

would you know that the contract really imposes the conditions that he

intended?  You would need a bilingual intermediary: and how would you

test his competence? 

   

[/quote]

And how do you assess/define the level of language that the student

wants to attain, and assume that they will only be satisfied with fully

operational business fluency??? Surprisingly, the Japanese HR Director

is not actually required to know how to write an enforceable employment

contract in English. It's not his job. Frankly, his knowledge of HR

legislation in the UK in general is sketchy at best. And just as a matter of curiosity, even if I did speak fluent Japanese, how would I know (unless I was an HR professional myself) whether he could produce an enforceable employment contract in English? NOW you're suggesting that in order to teach a student, the teacher must have mastered the intricacies and technical vocabulary of each student's professional area of expertise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You were sarcastic, and I was condescending.  I apologise.

But how many times do I have to repeat: [quote]I didn't say that it was "vital" for the teacher to understand the student's mother tongue.  I said it was more efficient.[/quote]

I don't think this argument can be settled; there's probably no satisfactory way of testing it.  One of the big schools like Berlitz could conceivably do so, if they systematically compared the results of students who had been taught by a teacher who understood their mother tongue with those of students taught by a teacher who didn't.

I don't know why they should go to that trouble.  So we'll probably never know.

Incidentally, of course I do not believe that every student needs to aim for a high level of accuracy in technical translation.  But some do.  The world needs people who can translate instruction manuals and tax treaties, for instance.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi there,

What a fascinating discussion...I am an EFL/ ESOL teacher specialising in Academic English and have been at it for nearly 20 years. A point to think about is that of the school and university situation in the UK. There has been a huge increase in the number of overseas students coming to the UK to learn english in a purely english speaking environment - the reason? They feel that it is much more effective to learn and be taught in an environment where the target language is used all of the time. These are students/academics/professionals who have been taught english in their own countries by non-native speaking teachers and are not entirely satisfied with their level of english. There is no doubt in my mind having taught english in many different countries in the world that students make better and faster progress if they are immersed in the target language. I have never needed to resort to translation in an explanation in all my years teaching despite the fact that I could have done so.

On the other hand, we must not confuse the needs of people wishing to work as professional translators, they of course have completely different language learning and teaching needs compared to someone who is learning Business English or general English.

Finally, my point is; that many thousands of people choose to be taught english by teachers who cannot speak their language for the simple reason that it is perceived to be (by the industry at large and backed by the academic study of second language acquisition) more effective. Of course, that does not mean that a teacher who uses translation to help them explain a vocabulary item or grammatical structure is totally wrong. In fact, in a workplace environment, where an individual was trying to support a colleague who was struggling, I feel it would be totally appropriate. The workplace is not the same as a classroom.

KathG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
been away for 3 weeks in my (native) Switzerland. Whilst there found an article in local paper about the differences between teaching English and German (to French speaking students). It is easy (!) to teach English, as initially grammar is very simple, as there is no article gender and most importantly,  no declension system. My initial comments re the usefulness of understanding the language of students being taught, to anticipate their own particular difficulties, may have stemmed from the fact that I have taught French and German for most of my life, and English only for the past 8 years  (and so far only to students whose language I know very well). To teach German to UK students is very difficult, because right from the start you have 3 genders and declension changes for the direct object/accusative case for the article and the adjective. As UK students have no idea of gender (gramatically speaking), or what a direct or indirect object is- that has to be explained and the only way to do this is in English. this just does not arise when teaching English. Today I taught a Czech lady for the first time. As my only word of Czech is jezevetz (badger)! I conducted the lesson in English. No problem of course. But I was frustrated not to know whether the Czech (she also speaks Ukrainian) language has one or more present tenses- so I couldn't understand whether she may have difficulties with the concept of the present simple/continuous. Her English is not good enough for her to explain the situation about her own language. Not a problem- as I said, in English it doesn't matter. But as a person fascinated by different languages and all their aspect, I would love to know.

I fully understand that it is not possible in many cases to know/understand the languages of the students we teach - but for me it is a source of great enrichment- and I feel, makes me a 'better' teacher. However, I do feel that a UK person going to teach in France should really make the effort to have a good understanding of the language. All people going to live in a foreign country, by choice, and especially to teach, should make the effort to learn as much as poss beforehand if at all possible. And teachers of all languages should have the skills to use a good quality dictionary, with all its nuances, synonyms, register - and their training should make them aware that an electronic dictionary- though useful- is not a good/suitable alternative for the job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Sweet17 - yes it is a fascinating subject - after 30 years teaching I still feel I have so much more to learn. And to get back to Caroline who got me 'started' - how are you getting on? Have you started yet? Tell us how you are getting on.       Meilleures salutations   Odile

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...