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Message for Will. Advice Pls - Electrician want to work in France - Decannale, Siret ??


mary
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Will,

I Don't know if you have read this thread, but Cooperlola, said you may be able to help with this.  Thanks

Hi Everyone

I have posted a few times before with some queries, I wonder if I could pick your brains again, as I am going around in circles.  I will keep it brief.

Husband is 17th Ediiton, Part P etc electrician - Sole Trader employing CIS Subbies etc in the UK.  I have been living here in France for the last 7 months with OH commuting at the weekends.  We now have decided we deffinaltly want to stay here and for OH to work out here in France.  

We have advised by our Accountant to keep registered in the UK, while he does an overlapping period of working between the UK and France, just incase it doesn't work out and we loose all our clients etc in the UK .  Spoke with HMRC - UK and VAT - UK and it is ok to do this, as we are part of the EU and you can work anywhere freely in the EU. Public Liability (Civile here in France) will cover us to work abroad. 

Now this is the bit that I am going around in circles with. 

I have spoken with our local TAX office in France and they have confrimed we can work here and pay tax in the UK.

I haven spoken with the Chambre de Meteirs (?Spelling) in Bordeaux and they have a representative who deals with 'English' Artisans.  He has confrimed we can work between the UK and France and advised us not to set up here yet, until we are sure we deffinatley want to bring the business here.  IE for Tax, to receive the full benefits when starting a business when OH is working here full time and also if not sucessful, to then have to de register 6-12 months later. 

C de M - Bordeaux said that we need to have Decannale Insurance and when we have this to come and see him, and he will register OH.  Queried can we get Decannale Insurance without Siret Number.  He said that it is possible and there are insurance companies that will cover us, but he could not advise us which ones.  (Not allowed tell us or did not know which ones, not sure)  Have a french friend ring around Insurance companies\Brokers for me, as my french is not fully up to speed to ask these questions and they have all said no and are quite suspicious.  None have heard of this before.

I don't know what to do now.....  Has anyone done a similar thing like this to make sure they are happy working here before closing down the UK.  We don't want to stop all work in the Uk incase it doesn't work out here, and then OH has no work here or the UK.  Can anyone help with the Decannale Insurance query.  Is it possible.  C de M said it is.  Any help will be much apprecited

Thanks Vida

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I am very sorry but I can't help you although I do know he will require insurance, its a must.

What does worry me a little from the point of view you seem to be about ready to spend some money is his qualifications.

Whilst I am sure he is highly qualified in the UK will the French accept his UK qualifications. I ask this as domestic wiring in France is considerably different in most aspects to the UK. Perhaps the most basic is that 'Twin and Earth' does not exist in France and there are loads of other things. I think there is a French qualified electrician on the forum somewhere and he should be able to tell you more.

I would definitely check this out and get a written reply before spending any money. I hasten to add I am no expert in this field.

I do personally know a guy who was a UK registered plumber and he had to go on a 'conversion' course before he could officially register and operate in France. He couldn't do it straight away as his French was not up to it because naturally the course was all in French. He has done it now, is fully registered and seems very happy.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

What does worry me a little from the point of view you seem to be about ready to spend some money is his qualifications.

Whilst I am sure he is highly qualified in the UK will the French accept his UK qualifications. [/quote]

The truth is, he doesnt actually need any qualifications here, he must just be able to prove a minimum of 3 yrs working as an electrician.

 

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[quote user="tj"][quote user="Quillan"]

What does worry me a little from the point of view you seem to be about ready to spend some money is his qualifications.

Whilst I am sure he is highly qualified in the UK will the French accept his UK qualifications. [/quote]

The truth is, he doesnt actually need any qualifications here, he must just be able to prove a minimum of 3 yrs working as an electrician.

[/quote]

Out of interest is that in France or anywhere?

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"I have spoken with our local TAX office in France and they have confirmed we can work here and pay tax in the UK"

Given that you say your French is not that good and as French tax offices are notorious for giving opinions and not checking facts,  I would certainly check out that statement. Did they fully understand that you would be doing work in France?  Doesn't sound right at all.  The danger is if its wrong you might end up getting taxed twice!

There are one or two qualified electricians on here who will tell you the hoops you have to jump through, but as your O/H is a qualified electrician he will not find the French wiring difficult, just different.[:D] 

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When Will posts you will get the difinitive answer as he's au fait with all this stuff and good at explaining it, to boot.  However, I agree with Ron in that the advice you have been given runs contrary to everything I know (which, OK, isn't so much I guess) about working over here.  If you live here and carry out the work here, you can only do so if you pay tax here also.   Be sure you've got this 100% correct before you do anything.  If your o/h works in the UK then fine but I do think your tax man may have misunderstood you, or vice-versa.

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I think the system is very straight forward, it all comes down to residency, you normally pay tax in the country in which you are resident.

There are exceptions, but dont really affect the average worker.

Of course a one man band can claim residency in UK , work in France legitimately, but infact be, to all intents and purpose, resident in France. Depends how good one is at keeping ahead of the game.

Although I see no benefit at all wanting to be part of the UK system, as the French system is great for small businesses if you know what your doing.  

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[quote user="tj"]

I think the system is very straight forward, it all comes down to residency, you normally pay tax in the country in which you are resident.

[/quote]

 

............and tax residency is usually determined by where you do your work - chicken and egg.

As previously advised I would double check with the tax office and get it confirmed in writing

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Thanks everyone, yes, both the Uk and here have said that it's ok to work in both countries.  My UK accountant, said not to register in France yet  and the HMRC, said we can work freely in France but not to charge VAT.  My OH is self employed, not a limited company etc, so I don't know if this makes a difference.  Obviously if we went over a certain freshold in France we would have to put tax on it, but that won't happen as it is only for an interim period.  The tax office could not tell me what this amount was either.  France doesn't have a double taxation, therefore, we only have to pay tax in one country.  My french friend, was with me when we had this conversation with the French tax office. The C de M have said he can work in both counrties, it's just this decemmale insurance that seems to be the problem.  Ideally, he wants to work here on and off for perhaps 6 months, between contracts finishing in the UK,  see how it goes, and then shut down the Uk and register here. 

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Just a word on the insurance, although I dont have the name of the agency, but know for absolute sure, that if anyone has difficulty in obtaining insurance, of any kind, this govt agency will instruct an insurance company to give a quote.

I sure someone else on here must have heard of it?

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I have only just seen this, having not looked at the forum for a day or so.

You are, unfortunately, caught between two systems. As far as Europe is concerned, people from one member state have reasonable (but not absolute) freedom to work in other countries on a 'temporary' basis. This, however, is subject to your meeting whatever regulations the member state might have in place for regulating your trade.

If you were not an artisan, you could work in France on an E101 (or in some cases a workers' E106) form. This is issued by your home state (i.e. UK) to give you, and any dependants, access to health and social security in the state where you are working. You have to register, via your local CPAM, as a 'migrant worker', which will get you a French social security number, and you will receive the same health cover as any other French resident, while still paying tax and NI in UK. The E101 has a validity of one year, and the agreement between France and UK is that this can be renewed for one further year subject to the agreement of HMRC/DWP in UK and CLEISS in France. After that, if you wish to remain in France, you will have to register as a French business.

Where this falls down for people like electricians is the requirement in France for artisans to have assurances in place. Although you may be able to get the important public liability assurance from UK, you still need the décennale which under the French system is only available from French assurers (unless anybody has found a foreign assurer willing to offer a policy) who will only issue it if your business is registered in France. And if you operate a French registered business you have to pay taxes and cotisations in France - there is no simple way round this as the rules preclude the usual fiddles like just having a business and paying yourself peanuts as a salary or dividend.

The only way I can see round this is that you may be able to sub-contract to somebody else who does have the décennale assurance; I don't know if this is possible or even legal as my experience is in professions liberales rather than artisans or commercants. Or you may be able to underwrite the 10-year guarantee yourself, though I don't think that's strictly legal either. Or do as many do, and just try to stay under the radar until you have decided - but we could never condone working that way of course.

I hope I have understood your situation correctly - these cross-border work issues can get very complicated. It may be worth asking another accountant with direct experience of these matters; the trouble with most accountants is that they only know one country's detailed rules, plus the basic EU guidelines. You can ask the tax and social security offices, but again, the UK tax office will only advise on UK tax, not French tax, nor social security in either country, so you have to ask a lot of questions in different places and will often get conflicting answers.

Edit - having re-read your original question, as long as you spend more time in UK than France you should be able to pay tax and NI in UK and your dependants could be covered for health etc under an E109 form. However to do this 100% legally you should not do any work when you are in France (other than the bare minimum needed to maintain the UK business like checking e-mails, answering the phone etc). I don't think that's what you want to do, however - working on French projects can't really be seen as just keeping the UK work ticking over - so it looks like the E101 route is the only one open to you, and then you will need to make a decision about starting up a French business before the E form expires. It still doesn't solve the décennale dilemma, and E101s are not always easy to get.

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I note too that you mention the VAT issue - this can get very complicated. My experience was the same as the advice you were given, i.e. not to charge VAT/TVA for customers in the 'other' country (and make this clear on the invoices), but I believe others may have been given different guidance by their tax people. This could be a disadvantage for you in France, as you will probably not be able to recover TVA paid on materials etc, and will be at a disadvantage when registered French businesses can charge customers 5.5% TVA rather than the normal 19.6% rate on certain works. You may be able to do the same as some 'micro' businesses, whose low turnover keeps them outside the TVA system, and get customers to supply their own materials, charging only for labour.

No wonder, when things are so complicated, that so much work in France is done au noir, or at least semi-officially, as it is so difficult to always be 100% kosher.

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It may be worth checking with the Chambre de Metiers whether you can operate without 'décennale' for that temporary period.  My understanding is that because of the prohibitive price of this insurance many registered French artisans no longer have it.  I am not convinced it is a LEGAL requirement - although one gets the impression that it is - just the norm.  Providing the customer is aware that you don't have it - you should still have public liability insurance - then it may be legal.  English customers, for example, are not used to using artisans with such insurance and may not care.  My experience is that in practice 5 or 6 years down the line it isn't worth the bit of paper it is written on, particularly if the artisan has ceased trading or simply disappeared.  Although theoretically one can claim in practice it is extremely difficult.  You may need to push to find out whether it is a legal requirement, as in France one is often told things are 'legal requirements' which are nothing of the sort.
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Thanks Cerise - that sounds like good advice. Although there is little doubt that the 'system' demands assurance décennale, that's not necessarily the same as it being demanded by law - some artisans insist it is, while many think otherwise, so I don't know the whole answer either. I think it true that there are many who do not have it, and still manage to work. I don't see how, within the micro business turnover limits, anybody could afford all the cotisations, assurances, TVA, general business overheads etc and still manage to earn a living. But many seem to. [;-)]

Also, in response to Vida's last post, the French tax system does not have the same system of personal allowances that UK taxpayers are familiar with. French tax is assessed on a household basis rather than for individual people, and there is a 'threshold' of sorts, worked out from coefficients, so I am not surprised the tax office was not prepared to give you a figure without a lot of detailed information.

 

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Thanks Will and Cerise.  It's certinally a mine field.  I have an E109 form via my Husband, and am still waiting for my Carte Vitael to come through !.  As you say, we may have to work initially via another comany to fall under their Decennal insurance or set up as a micro\mini enterprise to be able to get the Siret No to be able to get Decennal.  I did put a Private message to Nick - also an electrician working here, if you decided you wanted an hand crafted Kitchen from Germay, and had it fitted into your home in France, how would this work.  The German company who are 'artisans' would not necessary have Decennal insuarnce.  Is it s risk you take employing someone who does not have it and who would be the person in trouble.  From what the C de M said, we would need to find an insurance Co to first, give us the Decennal before he could register us.  I am certianly not looking for a way around the system, just a way to make the initial overlapping period of working here and in the UK, as easy as possible. 

Vida

 

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With an E109 form you may or may not receive a carte vitale - policies vary between the regional CPAM offices. If you go not get the card you will still be refunded at the standard rates, you just have to collect the feuilles de soins and send them off to the CPAM office.

To be strictly kosher, the German kitchen company in your example would need to work through a French subsidiary or a French agent if it was not sub-contracting the fitting to a local installer. But many probably do not bother, though I would imagine the bigger companies would have French distributors or subsidiaries to get over this hurdle. In practical terms, nobody is likely to get into trouble; difficulties can arise if you sell a house and a picky buyer, or awkward notaire, insists on having the guarantee details for every bit of work done in the past ten years. Even so there are assurances (dommage ouvrage) that you can take out yourself to cover this, and DIY work - but it's all extra hassle and expense.

Nick will no doubt be able to give you some very useful guidance, he certainly knows his stuff and is involved in several related trades, though I believe he works entirely in France so the overlapping question will not arise in his case.

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Nick has already given the OP his dubiously useful guidance by PM. Just to reinforce the point about decennale, it is a legal requirement (I can't find the statute, but it is) and if you can't afford it, then tough, you are in the wrong business... True, many Artisans don't have it, but it don't make it legal. Almost always, liability and dec are sold as a package (you can't get one without the other), so they are probably being a bit daft.....

You can't sub-contract for a registered Artisan (and "use" his insurance), but you could be employed by them - with all that implies.

I know I keep going on about it, but in France (just like Spain, Germany, and most of the EU & the US/Canada - except the UK), the building trade is heavily regulated and all tradsmen must be registered and insured. No legal bypasses of the system available - believe me, I have tried!

 

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[quote user="vida "]Thanks everyone.  Out of interest Nick, how much is your decennal.  I was told around the figure of 2,000E.  Does this sound about right?[/quote]

About 700€ for the electrics, the rest adds about 250€.  (Groupama)

Noone (that I can find) does decennale for alarms/CCTV.

 

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Nick

You sure you have decennal for that figure

I pay 3500 euros for mine covering air conditioning, plumbing, gas, heating, alternative energies

I am not alone, all the builders I know pay around 4000 euros if they are covered for structural work

The cheapest deal I have heard of for plumbers is with MAFF, one I know says he pays them around 2000 euros a year

I cannot renew my gas certifcate annually without providing proof to the Maison de Batiment of my decennal insurance so therefore I have to have it

I don't know if it is a legal requirement but I suspect it probably is

Regarding the topic of the post about working in France to practice any regulated activity it is illegal to practice unless you are listed on the register at your local Chambre de Metiers

Operating from the UK in a regulated activity would still entail applying to the Chambre de Metiers to be listed on the register

I have no idea if this is possible as a UK registered business

Le Plombier

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Yes, my "principal activity" is that of electrican, the rest is "renewable energy" - I am not registered as a plumber (I hate it!!!!), I actually sub that to another EI (who pays about the same as me).

Perfectly legal - I have been doing it long enough! I hope that you are not suggesting that I am not insured, because I have got it cheaper than you....???!!! It may be a regional thing - I know that "general builders" around here pay about 4K€, but most of the electricians/plumbers that I know pay about the same as me.

Or, of course, I may be a better negotiator than you.....

 

 

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Nick

Not suggesting anything, just amazed you have the full package so cheap

Everone I know in my area, both UK and French all seem to pay 2k to 4.5k dependant on what they are insured for

There are also a lot around me who work uninsured and they can get away with it as no one ever asks to see the insurance attestation

It's only French client's who ever ask me for a copy of my attestation

As well as having to prove my insuance for my gas certificate renewal, I work with a manufacturer of geothermie equipment and they also would not supply their equipment to me until they had proof of my decennal insurance, they even discussed the wording of my insurance direct with my insurers

Le Plombier

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