Property Finding - Information/Advice?

[Daft Doctor]

Hi

If I wanted to do so, what obstacles (apart from the lack of a viable market) would there be to starting up a property finding service in France?  Do you have to register with the french regulatory authorities in any way?  Might such a business qualify under the AE scheme (I think somewhere I read not)?  Any advice, information or experiences very gratefully received.

[Will]

Apart from the current market situation, which you sensibly identify, the biggest problem is how your service would be funded.

Charging a fee to the people for whom you are finding the house is probably OK, but its legality has been questioned before in France, so it's a bit of a grey area.

Grabbing a share of the agency commission is a much better business model, but unless you are registered as an estate agent yourself it is a no-no under French law, and property sales is one of the areas specifically excluded from the autoentrepreneur regime. Even if you registered as an agent commercial you would be tied to one agency, which would limit the service you could provide more than somewhat.

If you are based outside France you would get away with it, there are loads of UK referral agencies who work on a shared commission basis with numerous French estate agents, but as I read the situation you want something you can do as a French resident?

[Daft Doctor]

Hi Will, thanks for the info and insight.  The last bit is a very interesting question.  I am sincerely hoping to move out to France within the next 2-3 years as a early retiree from the rat race.  Property finding is something I would find very interesting indeed, but if I did do it I would rather act independantly of specific agents if possible (in the best interests of potential buyers).  If I thought a property finding service was feasible, even if only mildly profitable (just to gently supplement my pension income), I would probably consider starting out a service from the UK initially, taking it out to France with me if it seemed worth it.  Any further thoughts greatly appreciated. 

[Judie]

The agency I work for uses several introductory agents, most of whom are in the UK, but a couple are in France. The commission on each sale is shared by the agent if they introduced the buyer. Not really a property finding service, but a way to supplement your pension maybe? Of course, you will need to have an excellent website and good organisational skills, as well as great negotiating ability in order to justify your share of the commission.

[Polly]

and you are several years behind the times, so do your research in whatever geographic area you wish to live in before launching your life & savings into a potentially saturated market.

How many electricians/builders/satellite installers/wannabee estate agents/ B&Bers have done the 'I've arrived' bit to find oops! rather a lot of people have been there before?

[mint]

When we first began house-hunting in France 6 to 7 years ago, I did come across 2 lots of property finders (internet based and cannot now remember whether they were living in France or UK).  One lot was specialising in Normandy property and the other in the Limousin market.

Once I realised that they were charging 2% for their services on top of the normal estate agents' fees of 5 to 10 %, I very quickly stopped replying to their emails and other approaches.

So, DD, if you are going to be independent and not work for agents, does that mean that you will find houses for your clients and they will still be paying immo fees if you have found them their properties through immo's websites or offices?

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I tried getting into something like this before the market went tits up 2 years ago.

It was very hard to get into, and I personally think now these types of service are even less required since most real estate is so easily accessible on the internet. With cheap flights, it is easier for a buyer to come and view in person imo.

[Daft Doctor]

Polly, without being disrespectful, I am not a complete dork.  There is no way I would invest any significant capital into something doomed to failure (but then again, this is a service we are talking about, not manufacturing).  Also I would not be so stupid just to 'land' and expect France to fall over backwards to accommodate me.  This is of course why I am getting some wise council on the matter.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi Sweets, I just think there may still be people who wish to buy in certain parts of France who either cannot or do not want to do all the leg work for themseives, be it for a permanent move or to buy a second home.  They might value someone honest and straightforward fighting in their corner.  Is that worth something?  To some, maybe yes.  What is a fair price to pay for someone to help you in that way (if you want/need it)?  I don't know, but a figure of 1-2% of the purchase price might not seem bad if you get exactly what you are after with minimum effort.  If however as a proprty finder you have to 'get into bed' with an immo to split the sales commission to keep it cost neutral for the customer, that might not actually be in a client's best interests.  I would want to be 100% commited to the client's needs, but I think some would see value in that.  Best Wishes and thanks    

[pachapapa]

DD you have a point as the best deals are IMHO found at the doors of  the Notaires Office. Of course it requires french and local knowledge,etc. IMHO directing oneself towards immos is perhaps not the brightest cookie in the cake tin.

[Daft Doctor]

Thanks very much to you all for the advice, opinion and insight. I will ponder the matter a bit more.......

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Dear D-D

Having read your post and the replies, can I offer the following:

1. The relatively new occupation of property finder (Fr. = 'chasseur de biens") has been popularised in variou French TV programmes such as 'Cherche appartement ou maison' on M6. However, like many good ideas, it has been messed up by the French bureaucracy and vested interests, who (choose to) insist that this activity comes under the loi Hoguet (regulating estate agency activities, thereby preserving a monopoly).  A Ministerial Reply of August 2008 finally cleared up the matter and stated that where the client ('mandant') pays the searcher for the service, it falls outside the loi Hoguet. In my own case, property searching is a miniscule part of my activities (and I don't find it particularly interesting) and our French registration states that we do not act as estate agents, do not take commissions, and we define our activities as coming under APE (trade classification) code 7022Z (consultancy). Given the above, you could register as an 'auto-entrepreneur' in France under this classification and develop a specialised service.  

2. By way of preparation over the next couple of years, you could beef up your French (a lot of your work would involve translating and interpreting), and perhaps do a degree that covers French law. I did a Masters (LLM) at Warwick over two years, and specialised in comparative English/French law. When you arrive in France, you could spend some time working in an estate agency - easiest opening are as an 'agent commercial', not ideal but you get to learn the practicalities of the business, as no two property sales are alike. My two years in a local agency were very instructive and my former colleagues remain a valuable source of information and advice.

3. Armed with the above, you need to choose and get to know your area. I cover a very small patch but I guarantee I know virtually every appartment block or housing estate in the area! You need also to make your contacts with agencies, notaires (and their clerks, who do the real work), the planning department, the Mairie and others - this takes time but is essential. And finally, operating as a true (fee charging) independent, you need to be clear what added value you bring to the client looking to buy property and settle in France.

Hope this gives you some food for thought and a little encouragement - P-D de R.  

 

[Will]

P-D - thanks for the update. I remember not long ago property finding was very much a grey area - as the so-called 'granny network' found out. But even the status of registered agent commercial had been thrown into doubts by a French court ruling. It seems daft that somebody operating something as comparatively innocuous as a property finding service should fall foul of the very restrictive French laws, but logic doesn't always enter into the equation of course and I'm glad to see that things have been regularised.

I agree with what you say, and suggest to DD that he/she familiarises him/herself with how to deal with utilities, tresories, mairies etc, how the banking, taxation and planning systems work in France, maybe links up with somebody who can be project manager for building work, and most important of all become confident and reasonably fluent in French. That way a complete package can be offered to prospective buyers, which will be much more attractive than merely finding houses.

[Patf]

As an extension of this idea, we have friends who set up a business showing interested british people around the area. Visiting houses, towns, offices, beauty spots etc. They advertised online, met the people at the airport, put them up in their gites and of course, charged for the service.

They did it for about 2 years but gave up in the end, as there wasn't much profit in it, and they had difficulty finding clients.

I believe they sold the business to some other local people - I've seen their advert on the web.

[mint]

[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Hi Sweets, I just think there may still be people who wish to buy in certain parts of France who either cannot or do not want to do all the leg work for themseives, be it for a permanent move or to buy a second home.  They might value someone honest and straightforward fighting in their corner.  Is that worth something?  To some, maybe yes.  What is a fair price to pay for someone to help you in that way (if you want/need it)?  I don't know, but a figure of 1-2% of the purchase price might not seem bad if you get exactly what you are after with minimum effort.  If however as a proprty finder you have to 'get into bed' with an immo to split the sales commission to keep it cost neutral for the customer, that might not actually be in a client's best interests.  I would want to be 100% commited to the client's needs, but I think some would see value in that.  Best Wishes and thanks    [/quote]

DD, you're right of course about some people being able and willing to pay, say, busy people with high incomes.

But, right now, I am so k*****d with house-hunting that, if you were up and running today, I'd gladly pay your fee for you to do some of this driving around, combing the internet, etc, etc.[:D]

I suppose that you'd have to charge whether the client ends up with a house or not.  After all, you could find yourself having spent money, time and effort, only for the client (people being what they are) insisting that they don't want to pay as they don't after all like the property you have found for them!

Horrible thought but it must be factored in.........

Best Wishes, DD!

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, thanks again to everyone for all these marvellously helpful and interesting posts, it really is very much appreciated.

Sweets, I think on doing a bit of scouring around that the usual practice is to take a modest non-returnable deposit at the outset to ensure that only people truly interested in buying use a property finding service.  This is retained to cover expenses if no deal emerges, and is offset against the final fee if a purchase ensues.  Best wishes