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[quote user="Oracle"]

Well now what to start with …. Albert (always good with reliable info)

Please look again an see that the example was for an Artisan (Prestation service) who indeed should be contributing 23% (or 21,5% if you like without Versement liberal) and so of course it would not look very good against a Commerçant at 13% (or 12% sans Versement Liberal).


Sorry to introduce some facts to this discussion, especially after your kind comment. However, an artisan who sells goods pays 12% (13% with versement liberatoir) on that part of his turnover. This is clearly documented in the government AE Guide.

[quote user="Oracle"]

Sorry for the messy presentation, as Excel tables don’t paste very well (no I didn’t count TVA twice) As an aside, you will notice that AE have to pay tax on tax, ie, pay RSI on TVA (ouch)

But please lets tell the whole story so that folks can really know.


Excel is not compulsory. I presented my version of the figures simply by typing them in.

If, in your original version you meant that the trader was buying at 60€ hors taxe (HT) then this was not at all clear from your post of  26/10/2011, 18:41 .

[quote user="Oracle"]

The Commerçant (@13%) must find at least 27% discount (of public price) of purchases (that’s 15% markup on COG TTC) in order to just break even (earn nothing… ouch again!)

By my calcs I cannot see how our friend Euro trash will earn more than 15% yield if he has a 40% discount on PP (or 40% mark up TTC)


You insist on throwing in percentages for 'discount', 'markup', 'yield', 'benefit'. Please define what these mean in this context, expressed as ratios between actual transactions

Also, do you assume that the 'public price' is the total amount that an individual consumer would have to pay for the goods? This is usually given as TTC (with tax).

[quote user="Oracle"]

The numbers you have analysed, I cannot get to the same conclusion, (I’m sure that you can explain that to me) With your example I get that the discount on goods is 50% (very nice) and the mark up TTC is 67% to get a percentage benefit of 27% (not bad). But that is not at all what our Friend ET was asking I don’t think that he is that fortunate more like the para above (yet).


I don't know where you get the 50% discount idea from. I'll assume that by 'public' price you mean the amount that an individual consumer would have to pay in a shop. This would usually include TVA on the whole of the HT sale price. The shopkeeper has to send this money to the Fisc, but he gets back the smaller amount that he paid his wholesaler (or whoever).

I'll use a 20% TVA rate for simplicity.

TVA registered shop:

    Buys at 60€ HT (pays 12€ TVA but reclaims it)

    Sells at 100€ + 20% TVA = 120€ selling price

    Sends 20€ to Fisc so gross profit = 40€



    Buys at 72€ TTC

    Sells at 120€ with no TVA to send to Fisc

    Gross profit = 48€


Essentially, in your original set of figures you only mention TVA where it suits you. If the shop is going to sell at 100€ TTC then it would need a better wholesale price than 60€ HT unless it's a serious box shifter.

The cotisations on the TVA component of the AE's turnover come to 12% of 12€ = 1.44€, so he's still ahead.

All this ignores other costs, but we all agree that AE is not good for businesses with high real overheads.

Just as a matter of interest, what is your mother tongue?

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[quote user="JK"]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]If Oracle catches a fish, I'd be interested to see how he cooks it and serves it :)[/quote]

I suspect it would be a herring - a red one.

[/quote]I suspect he should hire Albert the Info Gypsy to train him to cook it correctly.

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You have me very worried about the last post (of consequence) in which you assert that and AE can declare RSI @ 21,5% for labour and 12% on material for the one facture with the same registration (BIC).

 All this would, I am advised by my Expert Panel lead to significant fines or perhaps much worse. Their cynical minds would tend to think that any Artisan would therefore be tempted to facture 95% of any project as Materials/equipment saving a handsome 10% with little or no chance of being caught. However, after going to check it out from the ‘horses mouth’ just to be sure, they made it clear that it is as you say possible to declare both. So I’m going to have to check into this much deeper, as it just doesn’t make sense that there should be such a grey area, which can be exploited to the advantage of the Entrepreneur – most ‘un-French’.

But notwithstanding all that Bertie (ol’ chap), I’m not confident that we are going to progress very much further as we are going, as clearly we are currently bogged down with business fundamentals and prima level percentages. The basis of any soft systems analysis is to assume a core of knowledge or ‘given’ information – we haven’t even got that it seems so it doesn’t look like we going to succeed to explore any more complex arrangements at this rate.  

 I find this pretty disappointing that after 5 pages of posts, 2000 views that no one else here seems to want to make a difference in how things are done despite platitudes and rebukes - noone said 'BOO' for over a week.  For my part, I dislike being a sheep and following along to the slaughter blindly, that’s why I’m doing this, contrary to what seems to be popular opinion here.

 So it’s got to be ‘give up now’ or up the pace, I guess that I’ll have to propose something constructive and specific to answer. So to ‘throw in a bone’:

 Interrogation A 

We’ve agreed that the AE has a problem with purchases (depends on above)and cost being taxed rather than deducted as SARL. I guess overcoming that situation would make AE more interesting would you agree. You could for example;

ü      Largely eliminate (Labour only)

ü      Out-source them

ü      Can you think of another way?


All this talk of fish is making me peckish!




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