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RSI - SOCIAL CHARGES 46%


mary
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 I agree with Sprogster and in addition Oracle one of the items in the Code of Conduct says you must 

* Use the service in a manner deemed inappropriate by Archant

 Frankly what you write concerns me more, not less, anyone replying to this invitation should do so with extreme caution and other postings along the same lines will be deleted until such time as you have something you can be more open about.

 Can't you make up some scenarios to test your theory ? How likely is it that someone is going to want to give you chapter and verse without knowing you ?

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Sprogster

Noted and yes already done.... but I'm not doing anything such as you suggest. I'm discussing!

I can tell you the question (but not the answer!)

I know from personal experience that an SARL/EURL/TI does not add up as there is not enough left after all is paid which must be paid, unless the business has more than say €500k turnover (some times even then)

I can see the problems with AE/Micro which has already been discussed, will not work if there are any sort of buisness expenses to be covered. But there are many benefits.

Can these two been combined so that the best of both can be enjoyed and eliminating the worst? If its possible (and it may be possible) then it could be a suvival strategy.

Ponder that!!

O

 

I note over 100 views since this question started -  and 1100 since the beginning, whose looking I wonder?

edit Yes Russelhouse its your job to cautious and I applaud that, but Nothing untoward is going on.

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Oracle, you can't blame us for being suspicious, there have been many people post on here over the years who were actually touting for business in a very subtle way and I have to confess, the posting made me a bit wary. If you have a genuine solution to the big problem here, then good for you and I hope you can beat the system if only by a little bit.Its too late for us now as we are closing our entreprise but do know what it feels like to flog yourself to death and see nothing for it.
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[quote user="Val_2"]Oracle, you can't blame us for being suspicious, there have been many people post on here over the years who were actually touting for business in a very subtle way and I have to confess, the posting made me a bit wary. If you have a genuine solution to the big problem here, then good for you and I hope you can beat the system if only by a little bit.Its too late for us now as we are closing our entreprise but do know what it feels like to flog yourself to death and see nothing for it.[/quote]

Your right to be suspicious! I've seen it here too.

Quickest way to get a great solution is to ask the right question.  Then discuss.  That's what I'm try to do.

Can anyone else come up with an answer? I've got one (I think, but I need to prove it), are there others? 

At least now there is 200 people thinking about it (I hope)!

I am the Oracle, but (sadly) not omipotent. So I ask for discussion (sorry for the melodrama)

O

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So after 300 views there’s no one with any ideas.

 Maybe this might raise a comment. Consider the scenario of an Auto entrepreneur who wants to purchase a product and sell it again to a customer for €100

 The transaction might look something like this

 An example to show the real situation for purchasing and resale of goods

Value of goods sold

 

€100,00

 

Margin

Delivery charges

 

 €?

 

 

 Total cost to client

 

€100+del

 

 

Cost of goods

 

 

€60,00

 

Margin (ave)

+67%

 

€40,00

€40,00

TVA  (less)

-19,6%

 

€11,76

€28,24

RSI cotesations (Turnover)(less)

-23%

 

€23,00

€5,24

Cost of invoice (less)

-? %

 

 

 

Margin Artisan

 <5%

 

€5,24

 

TOTAL

 

 

€100,00

<€5,24

 

 

Ignoring the delivery for taking the project on even though the discount is 40% the earn is around (or less than in reality) 5%

 One has to ask is that worth doing for such a poor margin. And if the discount goes any lower the result can in fact be negative.

 Going back to an earlier poster who said that AE depends on a business model, which has low costs of operation. Clearly the main income must come from sell labour.

 This situation must be improved because I think that there is another way of doing it.

 

O

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Oracle,

It is perfectly possible that you alone among all those involved in running a business, accountants, financial advisors etc have uncovered the motherlode as far as making a business pay is concerned.  However, all you have done so far, other than to point out the very simple maths involved in an AE profit analysis, is to intimate that you have a ''plan''.  You have provided nothing to suggest that this is anything other than a come-on to get people to PM you.  I suggest that you outline this ''magic bullet'' on the forum so that others may judge.  In fact, the collected wisdom on here might well be able to say why your plan would or would not work.

In the meanwhile I, and I expect most of the rest of the forum, will treat your postings with the utmost circumspection.

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Am I the only one who can't get my head round Oracle's example? Why does TVA crop up as a separate item, what's Cost of invoice mean, why is he saying artisan when surely this is a commercant activity and why is he deducting 23% cotisations when, unless I am mistaken, commercants pay a significantly lower percentage? What is the example aiming to prove apart from that fhe AE regime does not suit all businesses, which the AE website itself points out? It's not exactly inspiring me with confidence that Oracle has hit upon something that has escaped the notice of many thousands of very sharp French entrepreneurs, who have grown up with the system and have experience of it, and who discuss this very topic amongst themselves at great length on French forums in their attempts to find a watertight legal way of keeping more of their hard-earned profits.
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Well at least someone cares to discuss.

JK. I'm wanting to discuss the topic with anyone who has ideas about it - nothing wrong with that is there. Should I come right out and 'Tell all my answer', well no,

and as for you tell me 'why it will not work' - I doubt that you could because no one else has been able to.

(It seems that you just don't get it) I'm try to see if there is anyone who is thinking about this and can (like me) offer insights, because maybe you might think of some answer yourself to this perplexing question. That would be good for you now wouldn't it. 

Eurotrash

The TVA is on all goods bought by a anyone no matter what their regime, however AE (and Micro) cannot collect and therefore offset TVA, so its a cost - did you know that this was the result of buying and selling under AE?

Cost of invoice -clumsy way to quantify some sort of cost to do business, in another example I have for SARL/TI this is the cost of Accounting (sometimes nearly €3000 divided by the number of invoices per year,) its a way of expressing at least one of fixed cost of doing business in this (over simplified) model

Your last (very long) sentence is the most interesting yet (thank you)- why hasn't anyone in France done this before..... hhhhmmmm, maybe its because they haven't thought about it as we here are doing.

Because I have asked the question!

 

O

 

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Hi Oracle, re the TVA - ok but if I was buying and selling, and I'd decided I needed a 40% markup, I'd base it on cost of goods+TVA since that is what it is costing me to buy.

Re cost of doing business, I send invoices by email and store them on computer. Aside from my valuable time, accountancy costs nothing. Unless someone wants me to print documents off in which case it will cost me paper and ink. But OK I do see that if you are sending out goods you may need to send an invoice with them.

I have just checked the AE website and commercants pay 12% cotisations not 23% so that will change your figures a bit.

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Chancer,

I wouldn't worry about that. The whole set of figures is so badly presented it's effectively meaningless. There are two lines with '?' as the value and the TVA seems to be applied twice. Also, as has been pointed out, the cotisation rate for commerce is 12%.

As far as I can see, the figures should look like this.

Receipts for goods sold        €100,00

Cost of goods (TTC)          -€60,00

RSI Cotisations (12%)       -€12.00

Profit before tax                €28.00

This gives a gross margin of 60%  and a profit (before tax) of 28% of turnover. Delivery costs (postage etc.) would impact this, as would other operating costs such as transport.

As everybody who's done any research into it knows, AE is not suited to commerce where there is a low markup or high real costs.

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Well then, things are hotting up a bit.

All the better!!

Well now what to start with …. Albert (always good with reliable info)

Please look again an see that the example was for an Artisan (Prestation service) who indeed should be contributing 23% (or 21,5% if you like without Versement liberal) and so of course it would not look very good against a Commerçant at 13% (or 12% sans Versement Liberal).

Sorry for the messy presentation, as Excel tables don’t paste very well (no I didn’t count TVA twice) As an aside, you will notice that AE have to pay tax on tax, ie, pay RSI on TVA (ouch)

But please lets tell the whole story so that folks can really know.

The Commerçant (@13%) must find at least 27% discount (of public price) of purchases (that’s 15% markup on COG TTC) in order to just break even (earn nothing… ouch again!)

By my calcs I cannot see how our friend Euro trash will earn more than 15% yield if he has a 40% discount on PP (or 40% mark up TTC)

The numbers you have analysed, I cannot get to the same conclusion, (I’m sure that you can explain that to me) With your example I get that the discount on goods is 50% (very nice) and the mark up TTC is 67% to get a percentage benefit of 27% (not bad). But that is not at all what our Friend ET was asking I don’t think that he is that fortunate more like the para above (yet).

 

ET

Yes your doing a lot to get your 15% benefit I’ll wager, so if you reach you limit €81,500 then you’ll have €12,225 net in your pocket…. (hhmmm).

 

I’m sure that there must be a better way.

 

O
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[quote user="Oracle"]

I’m sure that there must be a better way.

 

O[/quote]I was under the impression from your first post that you thought you had found a better way but now I am beginning to wonder if you are on a fishing trip to see if someone on this forum has a better way. This would explain your reluctance to diverge any details of your scheme. Apologies if I have missed something
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Well, if it is a really cute idea, it might be quite canny not to divulge details on the forum. It's one thing to share details via email or PM but posting something that is ingenious on the forum makes it the property of the forum - ie, Archant - doesn't it? Archant would be free to reproduce it elsewhere.

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[quote user="Rabbie"]

I was under the impression from your first post that you thought you had found a better way but now I am beginning to wonder if you are on a fishing trip to see if someone on this forum has a better way. This would explain your reluctance to diverge any details of your scheme. Apologies if I have missed something[/quote]

Thanks for asking the question but I already said what my purpose is and it doesn't involve publishing my plan on open forum that would be against the rules of the forum and against my interest.

What I'm merely saying is that, I've managed to come up with a plan (hurrah!) that means by definition that there must be others - different ways.  Now there are nearly 1000 views on this thread since I began talking (perhaps not all looking a at theses exchanges), which indicates to me that there are people who are interested in the subject (and why not, we are all finding it hard these days).

What baffles me is that with all of those views and nearly 3 pages of exchanges so far past, not more than one poster has sort to exercise his brain to explore the subject to try understand the problem and search for a different solution (how sad). For the benefit of the detractors, elsewhere in Forum land the exchanges has been much more positive and many times more productive - in short, they get it! 

So I'll say this, I know its possible, so if nobody wants to join with me to explore its nature to find their own solution - fine!

But if alls that'll happen here is for posters to wait for me to give up the results of my hard work and creative thought, then I can say to all 'strap in' because it'll be a long wait.

 

 

O

 

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