Information on setting up a chimney sweeping/stove installing business in France

[jsdorset]

Hi, I am hoping I can get some information on starting a chimney sweeping business in France.

I am a chimney sweep and stove installer in England and have many years of experience.

I am looking to move to France within 2 years and need to get the ball

rolling so I can get whatever is needed done by the time I move.

Currently I only have schoolboy french but am enrolled in classes

starting September and hope to have more French by the time i move. I

have not decided exactly where I will be living but somewhere in the

South West. Any information on registering, etc and/or general advice

will be gratefully received and I thank you in advance

[idun]

I just looked in the yellow pages and in the Midi Pyrenees there are 288 sweeps and 210 installers, Aquitaine 369 sweeps and 269 installers and Languedoc Roussillon 203 sweeps and 112 installers.

When we had our insert fire installed, it was the people we bought it from who did it, lousy job done and my husband reinstalled it himself. And we  like everyone we knew had the company we bought from install or it was DIY. In 25 years we never had a professional sweep done, we bought the equipment via the cooperative associated with our house insurer and DIY'd it and that is what a lot of people I know did ........ and over the years, sometimes with our gear. As there are sweeps and installers, I can only imagine that some people use professionals as there seems to be plenty about.

No idea if you could sign up as an Auto-entrepreneur, or would have to be a fully fledged artisan. You'd have to contact the A-E people and check. The cotisations are as far as I know cheaper if you do, probably about 25% of your income? Plus your insurance. It is a dear do to run a business in France and hard to make a good living. A living wage may even be hard to do too as France is not a cheap country to live in..

[dave21478]

There are very few sweeps around my area, and those that do exist are all also working as something else too....plumbers, roofer etc etc. Which would suggest that perhaps sweeping alone doesnt earn enough to live from.

As for installation, I dont know and wouldnt like to comment too much. I see the same 2 or 3 installation company vans lurking about the area and they all look like franchises for the big stove brands.

[Gardian]

We have our chimney swept annually in April / May by a local man who is excellent.

He's in and out in 40 mins and charges €41, which we reckon is reasonable for the peace of mind and the cleanliness in the way he does the job.

One thing though - when we first were looking for a chimneysweep, we phoned somebody in the local town and he said "You're outside of my patch - M. Bloggs is your man", implying that they operate a sort-of cartel system.  Very French.

At the risk of stating the obvious, research on the size of market and competition would be essential.

Best of luck. 

[jsdorset]

[quote user="idun"]I just looked in the yellow pages and in the Midi Pyrenees there are 288 sweeps and 210 installers, Aquitaine 369 sweeps and 269 installers and Languedoc Roussillon 203 sweeps and 112 installers.

When we had our insert fire installed, it was the people we bought it from who did it, lousy job done and my husband reinstalled it himself. And we  like everyone we knew had the company we bought from install or it was DIY. In 25 years we never had a professional sweep done, we bought the equipment via the cooperative associated with our house insurer and DIY'd it and that is what a lot of people I know did ........ and over the years, sometimes with our gear. As there are sweeps and installers, I can only imagine that some people use professionals as there seems to be plenty about.

No idea if you could sign up as an Auto-entrepreneur, or would have to be a fully fledged artisan. You'd have to contact the A-E people and check. The cotisations are as far as I know cheaper if you do, probably about 25% of your income? Plus your insurance. It is a dear do to run a business in France and hard to make a good living. A living wage may even be hard to do too as France is not a cheap country to live in..

[/quote]

Thank you for your reply,  Apparently it is now law in France to get your chimney professionally swept once a year and a certificate issued otherwise your insurance will be invalid should you have a chimney fire. This may be something you want to look into just in case. That sure sounds like a lot of sweeps but as you are aware there are good and bad in all trades, I have 30 years experience and am considered one of if not the best in my area and I have always found if you offer an excellent service at a fair price there is always room for one more, at least I hope! I am coming to France to Enjoy life not to work too hard so it may suit me if there is only part time work to be had.

Thank you again for your reply.

[jsdorset]

[quote user="Gardian"]

We have our chimney swept annually in April / May by a local man who is excellent.

He's in and out in 40 mins and charges €41, which we reckon is reasonable for the peace of mind and the cleanliness in the way he does the job.

One thing though - when we first were looking for a chimneysweep, we phoned somebody in the local town and he said "You're outside of my patch - M. Bloggs is your man", implying that they operate a sort-of cartel system.  Very French.

At the risk of stating the obvious, research on the size of market and competition would be essential.

Best of luck. 

[/quote]

Thank you for your reply here in England I charge £50 for woodburners/stoves and that includes a service of the stove, attaching ropes, re sealing joints w/fire cement, checking all seals and cleaning glass and grates, cleaning the stove thoroughly ready for the new season, I also smoke test to be sure of good seals (vital due to possible Carbon monoxide poisoning from leaks) and issue certificates. and a stove will take 1 hour plus, open fires I charge less unless its an inglenook I also offer a discount for oap's here in England I am approaching my busy season now as it seems no matter how many I tell not to leave it till the last minute everybody does! November & December I turn work down as everyone wants it done for Xmas! But am slow through spring & summer which is when I install stoves.I have heard in France the busy season is through the spring/summer which will work well for me as I dont want to work 52 weeks a year anymore I want to enjoy life in France so part time will suit. I think the Cartel thing is not so much that but us sweeps like to be punctual and try and sweep a few jobs in one area with not vast amounts of driving in between I work approx a 20 - 30 mile radius of where I live. My target market to start will be mainly ex pats but we will see. Again thank you for your reply and good wishes

[jsdorset]

[quote user="dave21478"]There are very few sweeps around my area, and those that do exist are all also working as something else too....plumbers, roofer etc etc. Which would suggest that perhaps sweeping alone doesnt earn enough to live from.

As for installation, I dont know and wouldnt like to comment too much. I see the same 2 or 3 installation company vans lurking about the area and they all look like franchises for the big stove brands.[/quote]

Thank you for your reply, I will only be looking to do this on a part time basis as having worked hard for 30 years I want to enjoy life in France and all it has to offer and as I am looking for a small holding time will be limited but I enjoy sweeping and stove servicing and installing so want to keep my hand in so to speak and to earn a bit here and there will be good.

[idun]

I'd rather like to read the textes for the new laws about this.

As I said, my insurance company has a cooperative where we could buy all sorts of 'stuff' including a 'kit de ramonage' no idea if they still sell them or not, as we sold up and left France. Friends, with the same insurance company, do their own sweeping too and had a fire, and the insurance company paid up OK. The only professionals we used to get were to service the gaz boiler every year.

[YCCMB]

You will need to be able to prove that you had 3 years of experience BEFORE 2/4/98 to be able to set up as a chimney sweep in France. If not, then you will need a French professional qualification..a level IV bac professionel, level V CAP or BEP.

The necessary permissions to operate are issued by the Departement's Prefet.

Of equal importance to the above is the whole French social security system. If you cannot do this as an auto entrepreneur, then you're entering a whole world of pain in terms of social security charges and, I assume, public liability insurance, which could possible make doing it as a little part time business financially unviable. But I could be wrong...

[Gardian]

[quote user="jsdorset"][quote user="Gardian"]

We have our chimney swept annually in April / May by a local man who is excellent.

He's in and out in 40 mins and charges €41, which we reckon is reasonable for the peace of mind and the cleanliness in the way he does the job.

One thing though - when we first were looking for a chimneysweep, we phoned somebody in the local town and he said "You're outside of my patch - M. Bloggs is your man", implying that they operate a sort-of cartel system.  Very French.

At the risk of stating the obvious, research on the size of market and competition would be essential.

Best of luck. 

[/quote]
Thank you for your reply here in England I charge £50 for woodburners/stoves and that includes a service of the stove, attaching ropes, re sealing joints w/fire cement, checking all seals and cleaning glass and grates, cleaning the stove thoroughly ready for the new season, I also smoke test to be sure of good seals (vital due to possible Carbon monoxide poisoning from leaks) and issue certificates. and a stove will take 1 hour plus, open fires I charge less unless its an inglenook I also offer a discount for oap's here in England I am approaching my busy season now as it seems no matter how many I tell not to leave it till the last minute everybody does! November & December I turn work down as everyone wants it done for Xmas! But am slow through spring & summer which is when I install stoves.I have heard in France the busy season is through the spring/summer which will work well for me as I dont want to work 52 weeks a year anymore I want to enjoy life in France so part time will suit. I think the Cartel thing is not so much that but us sweeps like to be punctual and try and sweep a few jobs in one area with not vast amounts of driving in between I work approx a 20 - 30 mile radius of where I live. My target market to start will be mainly ex pats but we will see. Again thank you for your reply and good wishes
[/quote]

Just one thing to say - your reply and thanks to everybody who has contributed is rare & gratifying. If you can make a go of things over here and show that kind of attitude, then your business will be fine. That wasn't meant as a patronising comment - just how it came across to me.

Betty's warnings are no doubt valid - hopefully they can be overcome. 

[Ron-sur-Marne]

Re the "new law"... I first moved to France in 1982, and the sweep-your-chimney-every-year rule was already in force then, so I would discount it as a new advantage for your business venture.

You can buy a ramonage (sweeping) log, which you burn on a low fire and it chemically cleans the chimney. I don't know how effective they are, but a lot of crusty cr*p falls down the chimney afterwards.

The box contains a certificate which you date and sign and keep on file yourself. I have no idea whether this is acceptable to insurance companies, but it was accepted by our rental agents when we rented houses for 6 years.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Of equal importance to the above is the whole French social security system. If you cannot do this as an auto entrepreneur, then you're entering a whole world of pain in terms of social security charges and, I assume, public liability insurance, which could possible make doing it as a little part time business financially unviable. But I could be wrong...[/quote]

I think that - the bit in bold - is probably the showstopper, Betty.

JSDorset, the thing with auto entrepreneur is that you are taxed and pay social contributions - the dreaded cotisations - on turnover. Therefore the expensive insurances needed - and I assume (I know, always dangerous) that for wb stove installations l'assurance décennel would be vital - these insurances cannot be set against profit - that's not how the AE regime works. I used to say that unless your business expenses (vehicle, fuel, consumables, expenses such as insurance) are less than 20% of your turnover, then AE isn't the right regime. I don't think that rule of thumb is out of date.

You need to research tax regimes, (auto entrepreneur, microbic, micro-réel etc) and the differences between them relating to the accounting. Micro réel certainly used to be - and I think still is - the simplest tax regime where you can set materials and other business expenses (insurance for eg) against profit as you would in the UK.

You then need to research, probably via your local chambre de metiers, what assurances you need to buy in order to comply with regulations. Lots of small businesses who should have l'assurance décennale don't - which is a risk. Not having the right insurance when installing wb stoves is too scary to contemplate, imo, because the opportunity for a small mistake to become a tragedy is too high... imo.

My husband has a (fairly small) interior finishings business - fits doors, windows, plasterboarding, insulation, does tiling of walls and floors, etc. For him, l'assurance décennale costs nearly 3000 euros per year and because we are on the micro réel regime we must use an accountant to present our accounts. Accountants don't do that for less than 800 euros pa, often more. So that's on the way to 4000 euros expenses before you start to make a living and of course, you are then taxed (including cotisations since effectively they are a tax) on your profit.

France is not kind towards small businesses.

E2A: [quote user="jsdorset"]My target market to start will be mainly ex pats but we will see. [/quote]

I think you'll see that perhaps 90%? 95%? of the resident population is French so limiting your customer base to "ex pats" is setting yourself up to fail. Again: imo.

[idun]

Catalpa, I suppose that was what I was trying to say...'France is not kind towards small businesses'.

[Clarkkent]

I noticed today that our local Castorama is selling kits de ramonage for €14.90.

I dare say that in these times of hardship many people will think that it is a job they can do for themselves.

[jsdorset]

Thank you for your reply Betty,

It does seem a little complicated in France to set up a business even more at the moment as my French is very basic school boy stuff. But at least with the jumping through hoops in France it is protecting the consumer, more than I can say the UK does as anyone can set up a business here without any checks or balances!

[jsdorset]

Thank you for your kind words Gardian,

It doesnt sound patronizing at all. I was always taught "manners maketh man" and if someone can take time out of their busy schedules to reply to my post then the least I can do is acknowledge them and thank them. (even if it takes a week to get back lol)

I am always a positive person and always put 100% into everything I do. I believe like you it will work in France and as I say I'm not looking to be very busy, I would rather have fewer customers and enjoy my times when I work than run around like the proverbial headless chicken trying to make millions. I think that is the problem these days everyone thinks they should be earning a fortune and good old fashioned values & work ethics have slipped by the wayside.

[jsdorset]

[quote user="idun"]I'd rather like to read the textes for the new laws about this.

As I said, my insurance company has a cooperative where we could buy all sorts of 'stuff' including a 'kit de ramonage' no idea if they still sell them or not, as we sold up and left France. Friends, with the same insurance company, do their own sweeping too and had a fire, and the insurance company paid up OK. The only professionals we used to get were to service the gaz boiler every year.

[/quote]

Thank you for your reply Idun,

I gleaned the information from other message boards from members that live in France and I was told it actually states in the small print of your insurance policy, so I would get your friends to check their policy.

Also it may be to do with the E.U. I know for a fact that here in the UK anybody in a thatched property has to have a sweep at least once a year and have a certificate of sweeping for their insurance. I sweep a lot of national trust properties in my area and they require it as part of their lease as well.

There are rumours that it will be coming in the UK as well for anyone that has an open fire or stove.

[jsdorset]

Thank you for your reply Ron-sur-Marne,

The Chemical logs are not really an alternative to having a sweep visit. Personally I wouldnt want to send all the chemicals into the air but thats just a personal thing. They dont remove all the soot & tar, they will loosen it to a degree & you will get a small soot fall, but will still need a sweep. Some of my customers like to burn one of these a few days before I come to sweep as they believe it helps loosen tar & soot. But these are people who burn a lot of pine (which I do not recommend) and pine if you  are not burning it extremely hot can leave nasty resinous soot.

[jsdorset]

Thank you for your reply Catalpa,

I note what you are saying and this all looks very daunting with my small amount of French but I am sure I will get through it with the correct legal and financial advice, which I would no doubt do before I set up, especially due to all the warnings I received on here.

[jsdorset]

Thanks for your reply Clarkkent,

These sweeping kits are available here, but have you looked at the quality of brush & rods? They are about the same price here and sure great to have in case your sweep cant get to you if you have a soot fall or blockage and will do until your sweep can visit.

To give you an idea I carry about 25 different brushes varying in size (diameter & thickness of bristles) and stiffness I carry three sets of rods, various hooks & scrapers and lots of other kit I have found to be useful over the years. Plus a special vacuum, soot cloths and smoke pellets for testing all stoves & chimneys following my sweep. It adds up to thousands of pounds, the vacuum alone is over £800. Each of my brushes are specially made and cost more than the whole kit available to you. I smoke test for leaks and blockages after I sweep every job.

When sweeping it is very important to use the correct size brush for the individual job there is no "one size does all" chimney blockages are very dangerous, not only can it kill your loved ones by fire or carbon monoxide poisoning while they sleep (in the UK under building regs you must have a carbon monoxide alarm in the room of your stove/fireplace when installing new appliances) If you use the wrong size brush blockages can and will occur. Add to the risk of death the cost you may incur due to irreparable damage to your flue liner or chimney caked on soot becomes acid when mixed with water (condensation) and can eat through a stainless steel liner in no time. I have seen and replaced liners that have blocked up and/or been eaten away in 3 years or less, a properly maintained fire and flue will last a lifetime. To replace a liner you are looking at at least a £1,000 +++

I can go into far more detail if you wish, but I'm sure you get the message. A sweep that cost £50 average is cheap in the long run. And to try and penny pinch when lives of loved ones could be in danger is definitely false economy.

[mint]

js, I can't comment on the business side of things because I have never run a business in France.

However, if you will permit me to say something as a customer, I am very happy to do so.  In our house in the Charente M, our 2 chimneys used to cost 180 euros but I have heard of people paying much more than that.

I think your £50 is a bit on the low side if you are to make a living.  That's the "good news".

The "bad news" is that I think you will need to come over with a heap (however much you define as "heap") of money and be prepared to live off your heap for at least 2 or 3 seasons in order to get your business known locally.

You sound like a "good egg" who does a very thorough job and, certainly, I don't think any of our "ramoneurs" has ever doen the checks and stuff that you carry out.

If you ARE going to be anywhere near our place in the CM and, if we still have our house there, I will not hesitate to test out your services. 

The other bit of "good news" is that chimney sweeps tend to be recommended by people who like their services.  That is also one of the reasons why I think that, if you do go for it, you must be prepared to wait till you are recommended by word of mouth.  In time, you might even put some of the existing sweeps out of business![;-)]

Certainly, everyone used to tell me that, if you ring Monsieur so and so, you must be prepared to wait until they can come to you as they are ALWAYS busy!

Good Luck, jsdorset, and do ALL your homework before you burn your boats in the UK! 

[YCCMB]

[quote user="jsdorset"]Thank you for your kind words Gardian,

It doesnt sound patronizing at all. I was always taught "manners maketh man" and if someone can take time out of their busy schedules to reply to my post then the least I can do is acknowledge them and thank them. (even if it takes a week to get back lol)

I am always a positive person and always put 100% into everything I do. I believe like you it will work in France and as I say I'm not looking to be very busy, I would rather have fewer customers and enjoy my times when I work than run around like the proverbial headless chicken trying to make millions. I think that is the problem these days everyone thinks they should be earning a fortune and good old fashioned values & work ethics have slipped by the wayside.

[/quote]

Good luck. I hope you are right. Please, don't overlook or underestimate the level of bureaucracy in France, nor the cost to you of what you are proposing. Many have gone before you with optimism and good intentions. Those who have made success are a pitifully small percentage of the total, even the ones who really did do their homework.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="jsdorset"]But at least with the jumping through hoops in France it is protecting the consumer, more than I can say the UK does...[/quote]

That may have been the laudable intention... in fact, I think it is just the State trying to control everything while not protecting anyone efficiently - workman or consumer. The extra layer of fonctionnaires are happy to have a job administering it, though.

[quote user="jsdorset"]I believe like you it will work in France and as I

say I'm not looking to be very busy, I would rather have fewer

customers and enjoy my times when I work than run around like the

proverbial headless chicken trying to make millions. [/quote]

I am sure that you won't run any risk of making millions as a chimney sweep in France, no matter how many hours you work. [:D] But you'll want to cover your overheads and when you find that a lot of what you thought would be your pin money is going straight to the state, it becomes very expensive pin money. We all want to be paid fairly for our efforts... otherwise why be in business? In France (compared to the UK) it is more difficult for a self-employed tradesman to get a fair return for their efforts. Which is why there is so much work done au noir.

We pay about 70 euros a year for our chimney man - one easy chimney. He's a roofer by trade (which is common though I do know of a stonemason who also has it as a sideline) and we get a receipt / certificate when he's done it. This is something most people will require so you'll need to be up-to-speed with that.

Good luck with your research. [8-|]

[Théière]

jsdorset, unless it actually becomes law in France to use a Ramoneur I think you would be better to increase your prices in the UK to reduce your workload and enjoy the time off, or use the extra to fund a holiday home in your chosen region. Maybe some of the holiday time could be spent servicing the local ex pats fires/flues but in no way can I see this being a workable income with a chimney only requiring sweeping once a year in a Country which seeks to financially cripple small businesses.  Working from your UK company for up to the allowed number of months a year would be far more efficient from your income point of view.

It's not like a hairdressers with 6-8 weeks between repeat business, this is once a year and the mileage/time travelling alone will clobber the income.

France can't even keep to simple AE regimes and keep trying to change it, that means you move over when it's favorable and get clobbered if it changes.  Many of the small business people I have spoken to think their accountants work for the French government not for them.

Good luck.

 

[idun]

 jsdorset said:

 I was told it actually states in the small print of your insurance

policy, so I would get your friends to check their policy.

As I said, it was our insurance companies cooperative that sold the kits and friends (same insurance company) had a chimney fire and the insurance company paid up OK. Out of curiosity, I'll ask next time I speak to them if it is any different now, they will know.