chauffe eau?

[Isobel]

Hi,

Does anyone know how far away from the chauffe eau one can add a shower etc? We need to go 8/9 metres. Do you think this is too far?

[Punch]

There is no restriction in distance as the water is under mains pressure. However it is more practical and economical to site it as close to the "point of use" as possible to avoid drawing off large amounts of cold water before the hot arrives.

Paul

 

[Anton Redman]

Our ensuite shower is about 12 metres from the chauffe d'eau which is in the cellar. It shares hotwater feed with basin and I normally shave then shower. Warming up time is less than UK where hot feed was gravity from presurised tank but 22mm rather than 14mm pipes. It is worth using insulation on the pipes.

 

   

[ChezShells]

I installed a shower miles away from our hot water tank, sorry cant even begin to measure how much pipe there is until it gets to it, but its a lot and only 14mm into 12mm and really good pressure, and the pressure is better under well water!, I dont understand how this works but its good, I cant say this will work for you but if you have good pressure I dont see any problem

from the tank the shower is about 40 foot away but following the pipes probably more like 60.

[Jonzjob]

Once again, following the pipes, the shower in our rented house is all of 25 or more metric yards (that's an Imperial yard with 10% inflation) away from the hot tank. The only downside is the amount of water wasted when we use either the shower or the wash basin. It's not helped by the pipes run being ON TOP of the 6 inches of fibre glass loft insulation. The shower is great and like most French hot water systems is mains pressure. We move into our own house in a couple of weeks though and the bathroom is much closer and we think that the pipes run under the floor with the under-floor heating. That should keep them warm . The water is solar heated tooooo...

John.

[Plato comes homePlato]

Hi I could understand your being confused by this series of poppycocks answers.No wonder pommies are hopelessly lost mentally.......!! This site abounds in such nonsense.

8 or 9 metres is not an excessive distance from hws tank to showerhead unless vertically measured.

Use 20 mm piping in copper between supply and tank. 12mm thereafter is probably ok on your distances.

I am presuming the system is mains pressure (the best system although made a little to sound like the plague in thes replies).

Even if gravity fed the inlet sizes are ok...but stick with 20mm all through...don't drop to 12 mm diameter.

Use insulated copper pipe on the discharge side of the HWS or insulate it by insulation designed FOR THE PURPOSE and install it....

Chers

[Plato comes homePlato]

By the way the expression 'chauffe eau' is incorrect and meaningless..for God's sake you numerous illeducated and arrogant pommies....learn some french before invading France!! It helps in not looking abysmally stupid.

The expresson "chauffage" means something to the french as does "chauffe de l'eau!" but 'chauffe eau' is technically and in every other way a lighthouse flashing 'ignorence'  in large red letters.

Where we avoid completing sentences properly the French do not. The use of participles such as 'the' is absolute to being understood.

Fully explained personal inquiries will be kindly greeted...

Cheers.....

[Plato comes homePlato]

Finally plus having "mains pressure" does NOT mean you can have limitless distances for several reasons....friction and pump pressures and orifice loss and surface loss are quite significant especially after the dimunition of  supply sizes....

Cheers

[Will]

Plato, the arrogant tone of most of your replies is not appropriate to a friendly forum like this. Please consider this as a warning under the forum code of conduct.

If you are going to criticise other users then please get your own facts right. When one cannot even spell 'ignorance' it hardly seems fitting to accuse others of being ignorant.

In matters of the French language I prefer to take the authority of a French dictionary, like Collins Robert, rather than the word of an Australian know-all. The correct term for an electric water heater is 'chauffe-eau' (with a hyphen, the definite article is irrelevant).

Thank you

[Jonzjob]

Thank you Will,

A quick definition    P.O.H.M or as the aussies like to call it pomm  =  "Prisoner Of Her/His Magesty" I wonder who really is the pohm?

John.

[Isobel]

Thank you for the replies, you have all been most helpful. I have to say, the reason I referred to the water heater as 'chauffe eau' is because I copied it from an estimate written by a french plumber!

[Tresco]

Gosh Isobel, how very strange, that must be the same illiterate whingeing, lulu pom who did ours, he used the same language (I think it's called French).  

I could have sworn he was really French, his grandmother is the oldest person in our village, she's 94.

I will never trust an artisan again, unless they can show me that they are directly related to Eleanor of Aquitaine, before she married into that dodgy family, those Plantagenot geezers.

tresco

[Bobc]

"In matters of the French language I prefer to take the authority of a French dictionary, like Collins Robert, rather than the word of an Australian know-all. The correct term for an electric water heater is 'chauffe-eau' (with a hyphen, the definite article is irrelevant)."

Will,

Try pointing the idiot to this link:

http://www.wendel.fr/Catalogue/catalogue_C.htm

Surely it is time that you pull the plug on him/her.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

 

[Plato comes homePlato]

I am truly delighted on several counts that criticism of me has leaped into the discussion and stimulated some thinking. First of all Will the Conqueror has performed similar efforts to those  he/she/it criticises in me. This equalises our position other than I sense some concept of superiority. He also is in error that the expression is not an Australian "know all"...for this has no sense..the expression is an Australian "know it all" hyphens are unessential.

French in general requires an abundance of seemingly repetitive referrals to a known object under discussion wheher by definite article or "donc" for example...and as well requires earnestly to have no following vowels between words... and the rest you can work out for yourself re "chauffe eau" and chauffe de l'eau.

Re a spelling error...well you must have been so thrilled Willy to have snapped that up especially if so pertinent...I didn't bother to check and took your word for it..I will and do make many spelling errors as I race through replies or information and do not use spell-check. This forum is a minor part of my active life. If I made only one spelling error I would be most surprised..see if you can find some others my conquering hero, think of it as a sort of safari... a bit like the 11th century meanderings of (your alias claims some "connection to" ) the Norman Duke who engaged the "English" in the battle of hastings. I wonder how he spelled chauffe de l'eau and intelligent..anyone know...?

I will continue to make spelling errors and if I have minutes to spare might acknowledge it...I wonder how many needed to check whether it was "ant" or "ent"...hmmmmmm?? I madly race through typing with the fingers supple enough to type and typing is not my greatest skill on the other hand as I type dozens of times more info than most I am more likely to make errors than most. I am often tired after 10 to 14 hour days of serious work 6 days per week and promise NO improvement...ok!

When you find that I am ill informed on construction and restoration,Electrical engineering etc.. hot water and chauffage, the destabilisation of the world, politics,that it is NOT this site or its owners who (as one of your people has proposed) decide the regions of France such as Charente-maritime, the abuse of Brits by Brit  Real property vendors, and the numerous other matters I tried to enlighten such even as horse stables and associated matters...then do say but please don't hide it away where I need someone like Tasco to lead me to it...please

John I need to say this....it is clear that after criminal maltreatment by poverty stricken population abusing british 'justice' systems led to deportations and transportation to the antipodes and the stealing of "terra Nullis" Australians and Australia developed far more rapidly and efffectively than britain. We made significant impact on saving Britains hide in the Boer, First and Second wars to only mention 3 and at the cost of serious losses through british command incompetence and Political chicanery. We took thousands of orphaned, lost, downtrodden  and other british migrants after WW11 on a ten dollar pasage and cared for them. We now abuse migrants tragically unless rich and from a limited Asia and are guilty of not turfing out the bully-boy abusive Federal Government..

I accept that.WE now make it difficult for Europeans to immigrate to here as we seek rich 'locals" and have some political plot to render Australia less European and homogenous whilst having, paradoxically,  the most enlightened approach towards europe and England as well as Asia.

SBS brodcasting is a prime example of Australian public enlightenment fighting against the government's desire to emasculate crticisms of its policies via the ABC.

Migrant groups owing to their alienations and closeness are reasonably easily controlled in voting via their leadership and the federal and State Governments realise it and so SBS was allowed to get off the ground many years ago and serve numerous natinalities with news and entertainment. I suppose Britain also does this..?Interestingly some SBS news shows direct opposites to Australian news interpretations when it shows more compplete news directly obtained from the target country. Hallelulia (did I spell that correctly?)

Re "Pommes" and your lightly humorous explanation (we Aussies are used to brit efforts to pull us down!) I have explored the term Pommies and Pommes with numerous French and Brits and none has a clue as to origin. The origin (copyright..let us not have any scenestealing) is the similarity between Pomme de terre and Angleterre..voila..as for Lulu's mentioned not by your decent letter...but  by other jackals coming in for their share of a perceived attack, dangerously mistakenly  on a "weakened animal" feeling safe being fostered by William the Conqueror (it was a trait in his time too)...well..they abound...

I do recall someone on this page calling me an idiot..I doubt the supervisor will criticise that but I would suggest that term is transference...its amazing you know how the weak minded and cowardly come in viciously for the kill both in the animal kingdom and our own when trying to impress their peers...

John...Easter is approaching rapidly and your Penance for trying to shame Australia in the light of reality should be aptly performed in front of her majesty's prisons at say... your most local one ....It should consist of singing the Austrlian national song..called by Aussie ignoramus' here our "Anthem"..every quarter hour forwards and every half hour, backwards,..for a day.

As for the teeth snapping "rest", mentioned just above, well Tasco has been spoken-to elsewhere as he revelled in actually saying something. I don't think anything else was seriously significant and as for warnings I have noticed that as usual soliciting is permitted on the site.

I am very, very, very, very, glad also to have incited replies however critical as it meant people actually DID something instead of drifting aimlessy around making banter with little effort..several actually went to the USA produced French dictionary... a good start but sadly no one has been able to make intelligent technical dispute of anything I have indicated re building matters since 2002 on forums such as this one. That I am multiskilled and highly educated than most may irk you but you have the opportunity to work on something I expose or not...its your choice.

I am always happy to learn new things or of my own errors however much I joke about it or retaliate.... and in the meantime have plenty of technical expertise and offer it freely...if you want to mock that well..do so...its neither here nor there to me whether you learn or not.

I haven't learned much from the site other than information of little consequence passed through it before I returned from my travels.Though I seek to learn and to concurrently destroy and rebuild..its a process not confined to one letter...On the other hand I helped and spent time personally with numerous people whom I think gained from my experience and knowledge.

 

Cheers

[Will]

Plato, I am sure we all feel humbled to be in the presence of one so omniscient and infallible. I didn't know such a paragon existed outside the Vatican.

To paraphrase the song "Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way".

[Miki]

Well firstly I have to say that I have made many ozzie mates over many years in many countries.  BUT none, not a single one, comes even close to being as boring a bozo as you are Plato.

It has to be intentional, I know of no Ozzies that would admit to being a native Australian and write such utter and total nonsensical c***. It makes no sense, well maybe to you perhaps(I guess !).

I sent a long boring post of yours off to me old mucker in London. His reply is that you ain't no Ozzie and if you are are, at least stop shaming the lads from Sydney and say you are from Ayres Rock, where people might just haves some sympathy for you and your strange and bizarre outlook on life. You must spend hours juggling up words and putting them in totally the wrong order.

Good luck to yer but give us a break cobber, I am trying to picture you on Bondi, spilling out garbage like this and seeing the inhabitants faces, as they try to fathom you out. No doubt they would think you were indeed a pomme !!

How disgraceful but again the affectionate term of Pomme has been given to the wrong race hasn't it, I heard recently that it actually was a term for the original penal folks ?

 

[Alcazar]

Move along now, move along. There's nothing to see here, just some more Austalian b*llox

Plato: my CASSELL'S, (English, but also in SYDNEY, Toronto, J/burg and Auckland), dictionary ALSO gives "chauffe-eau", nm, as the correct translation for a water heater. As does my FRENCH plumber. Good grief, I knew aussies were meant to be arrogant, but thick too?

Oh, and you haven't answered my question as to how you can use 10mm sq earth with 16mm sq feeds, since the French system requires that the earth MUST be at least the SAME csa as the feeds, if not larger?

Or didn't your amazingly large, full brain contain that little nugget?

[Plato comes homePlato]

I'm chuckling still to myself that you guys have got to the 'phone a friend" stage to try to get a win over the poor ignorent (did I get that right willie?? )aussie..Hey..not ozzie..he is a sort of duck ..anyway....oh well, good luck chaps!!

It amuses me that instead of seeing the trees you only see the woods. It saddens me that having stirred some life into this sonambulistic forum you don't grasp the strong timber but seek the straws. Note I do not have to run for help to answer questions...

Someone, was it alcazar whom I vaguely recal trying to assist in2002.. asked a question re earthing. Really I am disinterested in number throwing by telephone types......The electrical engineering of electrical circuitry today where RCD's are used involves an earthing system which will satisfactorily operate the RCD. In other eras the earthing system was geared to one of two things..its comparison with a reference earth and/or  a mathematically arrived-at impedence which mathematically allowed fault currents to operate protection circuitry.

16mm squ cabling does not in any engineering sense require 16mmsq earthing UNLESS the earthing path and components require particular attention. Lets take 2.5mm squ cable..the laid up earthing of TP/circular is 2.5 mm squ as it is with 6mm squ.You see earthing and earthing fault levels require intellect...not ignorence.I had an instance today where I approached management re earthing size..2.5 mm squ in 6mm squ format.

Why my so clever friends/opponents  did I do that??Let's see how smart you and your dial up mates actually are..the question is SO simple!!If you get it right you may be able to comprehend more....I really love the intellectual approach, gets me all "brrrrr"...so keep it up please. I thnk we have a chabce here to illuminate the intellectual darkness out there....

YES!!..Suddenly the forum is alive...I am really pleased!! come on to the coconut shy and see if you can drop the target chappies...so far I have been abused and slagged off by amateurs and it amuses me immensely...but as well already people are checking and learning..isn't that great!!..I think so...........if one of you learns one thing of reality that's a great plus ..no??

cheers

[Plato comes homePlato]

Oh bother!!..I forgot Miki..sorry, Miki so, at the end of all that misleading abuse of me..you are in truth  saying I am a Pommie??...how very subtly praising of your race to put me and it in the same intellectual room when I suspect you strategically meant to pretend to your mates that you wanted demean me..I guess there is some freudian slip there old chum but anyway..thanks..I understand what you are trying to say and I appreciate it enormously....I hope the pomies and your old scrubber mate from the Bondi pipeline do too...cheers

[Miki]

Oh bother!!..I forgot Miki..sorry, Miki so, at the end of all that misleading abuse of me..you are in truth  saying I am a Pommie??...how very subtly praising of your race to put me and it in the same intellectual room when I suspect you strategically meant to pretend to your mates that you wanted demean me..I guess there is some freudian slip there old chum but anyway..thanks..I understand what you are trying to say and I appreciate it enormously....I hope the pomies and your old scrubber mate from the Bondi pipeline do too...cheersPlato

No need for apologies pluto.

Is that Ayres Rock Oz or as is suspected, you ain't no ocker mate, just a sad old international anorak. I am glad you understood me but the feeling certainly isn't mutual.

 

[La Guerriere]

A few extra thoughts:

a) If you're feeling really pedantic, the Big White Round Thing in the loft is a chauffe-eau electrique a accumulation. I've had to replace one once (hanging it on an earth wall is an Interesting Experience in itself) and replaced the thermostat once. Don't forget that when it heats up, the pressure inside goes up a bit, then the pressure relief valve kicks in and releases water via the overflow. So when you draw water for a shower or whatever, there is an initial fast run of water, then it slows down as the pressure drops back to mains level. Taking a shower give it a moment or two to settle down.

b) Plato's engineering in quite right. In theory earthing needs to be only sufficient to pick up the residual current that would cause the RCD (or interrupteur differential) to trip out, but that ain't the way that NF C 15-100 looks at it. I suppose they base it on the (not unreasonable) assumption that French farmers may have been putting 6-inch nails in the old fuse box. Having said that, it's probably easier err on the side of safety and put in big earth conductors... after all it's labour not really the cost of copper that causes the problem.

c) The French themselves seem to get their ditto knickers in a twist re NF C 15-100 just as much us us Foreigners, whether of the UK or antipodian persuasion. If you want really good entertainment on all aspects of French electrics I can recommend www.cyberbricoleur.com.

Happy plumbing !

Jim La Guerriere

 

 

 

[Alcazar]

Plato wrote:

<<<Someone, was it alcazar whom I vaguely recal trying to assist in2002.. asked a question re earthing. Really I am disinterested in number throwing by telephone types......The electrical engineering of electrical circuitry today where RCD's are used involves an earthing system which will satisfactorily operate the RCD. In other eras the earthing system was geared to one of two things..its comparison with a reference earth and/or  a mathematically arrived-at impedence which mathematically allowed fault currents to operate protection circuitry.>>>

What a prat you are pluto............despite having slagged off more than one person on here for possibly renovating houses in such a way as to leave them unsaleable in the future, you then advise people to break one of the French wiring regs, (namely that earth conductor MUST be the same csa as the feeds in use), in order to prove that YOU aren't wrong and that YOU know everything.

Get a life, or crawl back under whatever antipodean rock you came out from. If Australia is so good, why not go back?

"Number throwing by telephone types"? What is THAT supposed to mean? Try writing in simple English, and leave your aussie euphemisms for those who care.

Prat.

Alcazar

[Alcazar]

BTW: I sincerely doubt that ANYONE on here has learnt anything of use from your replies as yet, pluto.

What most of us now know is that you are arrogant, self-opinionated, rude and have a massive chip on your shoulder.

Do you need to get out more?

Alcazar

[PaulC<P><IMG src="http:forums.livingfrance.comimagesline.gif"><BR>Paul, Debbie and Josh, <BR>London & Dept 24<BR><a target=_blank href="http:www.les-brandes.net" target=_blank>http:www.les-brandes.net<A><BR><P>]

Guys,

Re: Plato's Earthing comments..

I think the newer regs in the UK (and I believe France) ask for the Earth conductor to be the same if not Bigger than the supply conductor so your not reliant on the RCD in case of problems.

There is also a misconception about the actual earth, it's fine having an earth that will trip an RCD but you also need it to be able to put the full supply current into the ground if needed, if your earth stake is not up to it or your earth conductor is too small then your not really earthed !

The UK regs now ask that the house earth is bonded to the company earth (presented at the main fuse) as this is capable of taking >100A to ground which in the worst case will blow the main company fuse, if you just bash a bit of copper pipe into the soil or use the wrong size conductor chances are it will not take anywhere near that (although it should trip a working RCD) and the only time your going to find out your earth is rubbish is when you REALLY need it..

While the French and English Regs can seem a little OTT, most are there to aid safety and Not to promote the sale of raw copper.

If you have a major water leak you get wet, if you have a major electrical problem someone could die, don't take a chance - do as the regs say and for your family's sake, don't short cut your earthing ! if in doubt call someone who knows !!!

Any "Engineer" promoting anything other than the above is not really and engineer. The dictionary definition of engineer is "One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering" and not a gob sh1te who think he knows best - I rest my case !

Paul

[Plato comes homePlato]

Guerrier, you have opened the book of kells!!...I see you have some intelligent thinking..I read you and your later doubt then traversed the paddock of the braying Donkey and went on to Paul and Debby and thought at quick scan "we are getting somewhere!!..then I saw this

"One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering" and not a gob sh1te who think he knows best - I rest my case !"

How terribly vulgar..but still the site constantly reinforces my criticisms...please note also I don't have to go to a dictionary to define "engineer".

It amuses me to see such plebian suppositions as inexpert persons right out of their league trying to get some kudos..

Let's just ignore the peripherals now...and try to condense this subject int some concentrated accuracy..oh and I logged on at first only to say my highly educated French friend said "chauffe eau" is ok though struggled to explain why usual French rules didn't apply and had to go off to teach!!..so I apologise to those who, unwittingly at the time, were not incorrect in that usuage.

One ought always to admit error and apply penance..and I for mine I will, tonight recite the ancient mariner backwards whilst hopping from one leg to another under a street lamp..thanks too to guerrier for the enlightenment of the subject ...I still find it 'unfrench" but ehre has to be a reasoning...(??)

Back to earthing...You cannot economiccally install adequate earthing in any ordinary premises to account for enormously high (usually and fortunately) short transient  level fault current without damage occurring in the event of such fault..it would be impractical on  a risks and consequence basis.

We require adequate earthing to carry NORMAL range  fault currents and be adequate to hold together to operate normal circuit protection where a fault to earth (directly or via MEN) occurs. Short duration faults can involve extremely high currents but the more usual ones will neither "blow" the earthing protection system and cabling nor cause irreversible damage.

2.5 mm sq cable can carry considerable current on a short term basis and greater csa may well only lower the passage resistance to earth with no significant improvement. There are arguments for limiting the free flow of earthbound currents too.......which does not include greater csa than supply. Sadly some ignorence of the reality is being displayed by interpretations of 'regulations"

I don't want to go too deeply as I am still awaiting alcatraz' explanation of the subject of earthing, re the question I asked recently after his amusing abusiveness for the purpose I presume of entertaining you and distracting from his technical void. I think he has had adequate time to frantically ring around and drum something up yet I see no reposne..perhaps you could sit up and listen alcatel rather than get all defensive....at least you didn't accuse me of "racism" as did one other poor ignoramus and I appreciate that alkie I really do...

In an RCD system the primary role of earhting is to operate the RCD in event of either overload or of leakage......bravo guerrier for your wisdom there...and to hold together for the next one!...because resetting the rcd after fault finding is a pretty important part of people using them and not having them unfunctioning....

Protection of circuits with greater csa on earthing than supplies is rarely used....unless...??..and don't try pointing at regulations you don't comprehend fellers...unless what??

The usual properly engineered system of say 16mm squ two pole systems is 10mmsqu. if you want to argue against that say why it should be so?

Following on to Paul and Debby copper earth stakes have several purposes of choice..and not all earthing systems are stakes. Better in my view than copper coated stel or stainless the solid copper is my usual choice..Your assumptions on earthing are generally on the line of correctness but you are not technical and were distracted from what could have become a worthwhile essay on earthing had our knowledge been up to it...by your desire to be 'clever' and try to do the impossible.

On the basis of what you wrote and comments on engineers I think it is fair to say you have potential Paul but that I'll be long pushing up daisies before you get to cooee of my expertise unless you take on engineering as both a subject and as a field job.

You made some odd remarks about copper and cash...Why would we choose, seeking lowest impedence earthing paths, either stainless or copper coated rods raher than coppr, the best conductor in general terms panel?? please make some suggestions...

One cannot argue technically about use of say 240mm squ earth on 1.5 mm sq circuits other than it is grossly expensive for no advantage, in fact is of considerable disadvantage .The earthing is the most important part of an installation in a sense...depending on your argument but adding copper to it achieves effectively nothing over a point of optimisation.

The speed with which RCD's operate ensures that exposure of the earth to high current is tiny and especially when the fault is on leakage in a combined breaker..100 amperes of fault current to someone who raise the quantum is not at all substantial unless "continuous". Note that the arc drawn within the breaker is quickly quenched and the current to earth ..if it is a part of the operating cause...is quickly limited. Various curves of circuit breaker operation  exist for various particular purpose but c is used much in normal usage.

By the way..what is he purpose of voltage drop formulae and temprature specs say as in between V105 and V70.? What is the purpose of derating factors? ...

Just as a finality the difference between us and regulations is that regulations often do not exemplify good engineering practices nor logical engineering practices other thn under a certain band of perception..corrupt gains through political policies associated with  terrorism paranoia is a good example in another field.

We who have to make decisions on electrical matters use mathematics and experience to do so...and Guerrier's simple (my paraphrase)"the purpose of the earthing is essentially to cause proper operation of the RCD" is not something which can rely on regulations and wholesaler's handouts..it requires a knowledge of the gear and the terrain..in the meantime specifications for the "average" situation are very much suited to the majority of instances.

Another question for our enervated bretheren (I am so pleased to see it) Recently(ten days ago) a block of new apartments had immediate RCD tripping in one of the units.The apartments had many faults and wires left out etc by the previous contractors and we were there on 'do and charge' to repair it all.

Nothing seemed to stop he fault and tracking it was aparently driving them crazy after numerous other problems had run them down that day and in that unit....  The only figure I could get from the electricians was "77 ohms on the circuit"

Now as a hint or distraction..the typical bulb resistance on the individual lights installed is 77.5 ohms on one order post point. The sparkies  were brain bogged after chasing the fault for some hours and literally tearing apart the electrics. ......

I gace the site suprvisor some advice and I saw the lights go on in his eyes....the problem was resolved rapidly then......what advice might I have given them which rapidly found the fault and what could the fault have been?

Cheers