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French house prices fall


Llantony
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Aaah, the Telegraph might be a sponsor (as is Brittany Ferries) but the organiser is French Property News, sister title to Living France and France Mag. So perhaps Archant ought to be removing this topic [:D]

That particular exhibition is history now, but there are plenty more in the pipeline. Enjoy your stone house in the hills - did you find that at an exhibition?

On another topic, buying through a notaire is certainly generally cheaper than buying through an agent. But don't forget that notaires still charge 'frais de negotiation', the equivalent to agent's commission. While a typical agent's fee will be 7% including TVA, notaires operate to a fixed fee of 2.5% to 5%, plus TVA at 19.6%. So at the lower-priced end of the market, which is where property is still selling, the difference is not so great. Buying through a notaire is fine if you are familiar with the language, the procedures etc, but can be a bit daunting for first-timers, although more progressive notaires do make quite an effort these days. Despite all the negative press agents get here, a lot of people do prefer to use them.

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[quote user="Will "]

Aaah, the Telegraph might be a sponsor (as is Brittany Ferries) but the organiser is French Property News, sister title to Living France and France Mag. So perhaps Archant ought to be removing this topic [:D]

That particular exhibition is history now, but there are plenty more in the pipeline. Enjoy your stone house in the hills - did you find that at an exhibition?

[/quote]

[:D]

Not quite history yet....It's this weekend at Olympia 2. http://www.french-property-news.co.uk/septvisit.htm

 

 

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I started all this!  No-one has yet answered my question about why French people say their houses will be cheaper if a buyer is not found via an estate agent when it's the buyer who pays the commission anyway.  We aren't really looking for another house, but were persuaded by 2 French friends to have a look at their properties and both said cheaper if we don't contact the agent.

But if we did want to buy, if prices are generally going down it would make us aware we might get more for our money.

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Will - Just to set the record straight and to appease LF and its partners, I found my house through a property agent's ad in LF - phew, that should redress the balance! In fact, I went to see one house and bought another that had landed on the agent's desk only the day before ('twas ever thus ...). Now champing at the bit while the notaire dots the 'i's and crosses the 't's but hope only to have another two weeks to go.
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Llantony

It doesn't really matter who pays the agent's commission.

My house is for sale through an agent for 100,000. I will have to pay the agent 5,000 if he sells it.

If you come directly to me I will sell it to you for 97,000; you will save 3,000 and I will get 2,000 more.

Simple?

Benjamin

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[quote user="Llantony"]

I started all this!  No-one has yet answered my question about why French people say their houses will be cheaper if a buyer is not found via an estate agent when it's the buyer who pays the commission anyway. 

[/quote]

I think they must mean that it would cost you less if you went direct rather than through the agent. Mostly, agents' prices are 'FAI' (frais agence inclus), and are the price 'NV' (net vendeur - i.e. the sum the seller receives) plus the agency fee. If you do not use an agent, you just pay the NV price. You have to add on 'frais notaire' - the legal fees and taxes, which are based on the NV price - whichever way you buy.

So yes, you would pay less for a private sale rather than using an agent based on those figures. But from your original question I think you know this anyway - the only other possibility is that with a private sale there is the possibility, which somebody else mentioned, of a cash-under-the-table deal, which of course is cheaper in the short term but can prove dearer in the longer term if capital gains tax etc comes into the equation. And it is illegal, and risky, anyway. Though that doesn't stop the French doing it.

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[quote user="P"]

I find the Immobiliers amazing.

As has been said in this thread - people are not coming to view and sales are down.

With that type of scenario I would expect the agents to be as keen as mustard to follow up on any enquiry.

I have emailed some agents about properties and no reply. There was one on here who stated in a thread that they were super efficient etc. I emailed with our requirements and lo and behold, no reply.

[/quote]

Paul's comments exactly mirror my experience.

Having made a decision over 2 yrs ago to spend a week down here on a 'recce', I contacted around a dozen agents specifying requirements (in French) in some detail, price ceiling (accepting entirely that it would be ignored a bit) and visit dates: invited email feedback on property availability.  I got replies from about half of them.

I made appointments with all bar one (and contacted that one to say, thanks but nothing fitted) and did the recce. Two of the agents were excellent (through one of which, we subsequently bought), one average, two hopeless. Two out of a dozen is a poor hit rate.

Having said that, the two which were excellent were consumate professionals and deserve to prosper.

To be honest, I reckon that estate agents in the UK are much better than their reputation would suggest. When we sold in the UK, our agents were exemplary and deserved every penny of their commision.  From the above, my experience is that most French agents could do with a rocket up their ***. 

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Benjamin,

"But isn't this exactly what happens in the UK property market and as a consequence is how British enquirers act?"

Maybe, but it doesn’t make them right and perhaps they should listen to some well-intentioned advice.

"Who says they should operate in any different way just because they are enquiring in a foreign country or that they should somehow automatically know what is expected of them?"

As Quillan says, “if you intend to buy a property in another country you SHOULD do your homework and find out how the system works. It's very simple, go to an agent in that country and ask.”

"With all due respect you are not just  trying to help them, you and the immos are making a living from them."

Your respect is accepted, thank you, but what about the relevant point that was being made in the paragraph you are referring to, that some people are getting the British a bad name? You seem to have ignored that in favour of making a blindingly obvious statement which has no relevance except perhaps to try to score a cheap point

"More likely that since the numbers of Brit buyers coming through their front door's with shed loads of money and with no idea what a fallen down old barn is actually worth has now fallen dramatically."

Yes, that might have been another reason, except that the Brit buyers you refer to existed up to about 4 years ago, and there weren’t many of them then and haven’t been many since.

"Now is the time for any half decent sales person to truly study their potential clientele and react accordingly not just put their head in the sand and ignore a potential revenue source."

Which so-called potential revenue source are you referring to, the 92% who don’t ever reply whatever one does, or the 8% who do and to whom we do react accordingly? If it’s the 92%, then all suggestions will be gratefully received! Even though I have been in the business for 6 years now I am always willing to learn something, so please tell me how to react to people who ignore all my attempts to contact them and help them.

 

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Interesting reading.  I popped round to a neighbour today who told me she is putting her garden on the market.  It is about 900msq.  She hopes to sell it to some Brits who will build a house on it.  Whilst I have no problem with the idea of her selling her plot to someone to develop, I thought her idea that her first target for selling said plot would be the Brits was rather bizarre.  

I also had a call about a month ago from a lady who stayed with us some time ago (I took her word for this) asking us to spread the word among Brit househunters that her old house in Mieuxcé was for sale.  I can count on one hand the number of househunters we have had to stay since we moved here.

Does this (admittedly anecdotal) evidence reveal a continuing belief among certain (ill-informed?  naive?) members of the population that the Brit Buying Bubble continues apace? 

I guess only the agents know the truth, and then only for their patch.

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This is one of a selection of odd photos I took on a day out recently.   It will give you an idea of what is "normal" round here, and an article in the paper recently suggested that prices are still going up.

[IMG]http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f314/BonnyYewTree/2006_0731FirstPics0027.jpg[/IMG]

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Good God SB!  What a photo and what a price!  That said, a cruise around agents here reveals that we would have had serious second thoughts about moving here if we were moving now, and not 2-3 years ago.  It all looks a lot more expensive now.  Wonder if our old house has kept up?

On the other hand, the price of our house in the UK inflated astronomically beween when we bought it and sold it and house inflation has generally been higher in the UK than in France since the late 1970's.

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Having a few beers (too many, as it transpired, leading to an

unfortunate incident with a wardrobe) with a chum who's wife is an immo

on Monday, this came up as a topic of conversation at some juncture.

I seem to recall that he said that she was as busy as ever, and that

there were still plenty of foreign types (Brits, Dutch, Germans,

Parisians, etc) looking and buying.  What he did add was that the

"quality" of buyer has shifted away from those planning to live here

back toward those looking for second homes.

Despite the rises in debt, unemployment and interest rates in the UK,

house prices are still motoring (7% year on year last I heard) and the

average house over there is changing hands for around €290k, so there

is still plenty of equity to splash about. I suppose the wheel must

come off eventually, but there seems to be life in the dog yet.

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Tarn Granny

I'll try a little scenario here which I hope will better illustrate what I was trying to say.  

Mr & Mrs UK decide to move house in the UK. If it's within their local area they visit the local estate agents and gather together brochures and take them home to look at. If it's in another area they email estate agents with details of what they are looking for and receive details that way. Either way at least 92% of the agents will probably not here from them again and no one will think that is bad manners because that's what happens.

In the second case they decide to look for houses in France. They've been on holiday and like certain areas so they do exactly what they would do in the UK. They again will not think it's bad manners not to respond to 92% of the French agents who have sent them brochures/details.

I did actually respond to Quillan when he made that point.

As far as me pointing out that you have a vested interest in the French property market I think that is a highly relevant comment for me to make within this particular discussion. Not everyone reading this forum will be aware of the Granny Network ( any publicity is good publicity).

I'll stand corrected as to when the shed loads of cash type of buyer disappeared as your experience will be more up to date than mine.

The Immos (who I was commenting on, not your self) cannot do anything about the 92% who they can't get any response from. The secret of successful selling in a depressed market is to carefully try to understand your clientele and not just to classify every British buyer as a waste of time  even though as you say you are trying to convince them otherwise.

I apologise if a comment I made in my earlier response came across as point scoring: it wasn't meant to be and I hope I have explained sufficiently in this reply as to why I made the comment that  I did.

Benjamin

 

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[quote user="Benjamin"]Llantony

It doesn't really matter who pays the agent's commission.

My house is for sale through an agent for 100,000. I will have to pay the agent 5,000 if he sells it.

If you come directly to me I will sell it to you for 97,000; you will save 3,000 and I will get 2,000 more.

Simple?


Benjamin
[/quote]

This is incorrect.  It is the buyer who pays the fees of the agency, not the seller.

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Benjamin should have said -

My house is for sale through an agent for 100,000. If the agent sells it then you will have to pay the notaire 108,000 which is 8,000 in legal fees and taxes, 5,000 in agency fees, which the notaire gives to the agent, and 95,000 for me.

If you come directly to me I will sell it to you for 97,000; you will save about 3,000 and I will get 2,000 more, you still have to pay the notaire - actually you now have to pay 8,150 to the notaire because the net vendeur figure has gone up, so you actually save 2,850.

Doesn't sound quite so simple and attractive that way. Sensible private buyers should pocket all of what they save on agents' fees, after all they are the ones who would be paying the agent, why should the seller and the government benefit?

(the figures are only approximate in this example)

 

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[quote user="TarnGranny"]

Paul, the other side of the coin is interesting and may perhaps give you a little more insight into the problem.

Around 92% of UK clients who send us property enquiries do not even have the courtesy to reply to the emails we send them. We reply straight away to any enquiry, we ask questions to find out exactly what the client is looking for, we get in touch with all our contacts in our area and find properties as near to the clients' requirements as possible and send off the property details to them, send them information on other things that may help them, and try to provide exactly what they would want (& more). We know that people are reading our emails, and we always follow up to see if we have done what the clients needed and if we can help them further - result, in 92% of cases, zilch!

We know that our contacts in the area get the same results if UK clients go to them directly. I am afraid that those who treat people in France like dirt, when all they are doing is trying to help them, are getting the British a bad name and causing problems for the other 8% of people who are serious.

I could tell you lots more, but this may help to explain why a lot of Immos can't be bothered to reply to emails from the UK, & I know a lot of them now are concentrating on the French buyers because they say that the British are a waste of time (We do our best to convince them otherwise, but it is difficult at times!).

[/quote]

Tarn Granny - I would agree that people should reply when an agent has sent details. However....

The agent has decided that they will use the Intranet as an advertising medium. They have a website - admittedly several seem to use commercially available webpages to show their properties so it is perhaps not exactly as they would have liked. Some of these include the option to switch between French and English. They also have with each property a little button that says 'More info on Property' or 'Details' etc. Clicking this takes you to a page where you can fill out a form requsting further details. One of the items required is an email address and along side this is 'MANDATORY'.

IF AGENTS ARE NOT GOING TO REPLY WHY LIST THEIR HOUSES IN THIS MANNER?

There are costs involved in this. They are advertising. Just as they might place an advert in Living France etc. If they are not going to respond then they are wasting their money.

I can get by speaking face to face with an agent who does not speak English but it is very very difficult over the phone hence emailing and the agent and both of us can use translation software if needed.

We are making frequent visits looking for a property. I do not wish to visit on spec, i.e. go to an agent and then see if they have what I am looking for. Experience has taught us that what is important is what the brief description and careful photos on the websites do not tell us.

We wish to arrive and visit houses that, after our research, i.e. emails to and from the agents, seem to fit our requirements otherwise we are wasting both our time.

As for people are 'trying to help them' - please this does not wash with me unless who ever it is, part of the Ganny network, agent etc are saying that there is no charge if a property is bought or, I believe, the Granny network makes a charge for property searches, please correct me if I am wrong.

To sum up, if you are going to advetise in a particular way you must respond to enquiries - unless you do then you may miss a buyer - we are actively seeking a permanent residence with the cash sitting in the bank.

Paul

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Alexis and Will

You are of course correct and my example was too simplistic but it's the way I always view financial transactions i e as simply as possible.

Another example: if I'm changing my car I'm not in the least bit bothered by the price of the car I want to buy nor the trade in price that the dealer is offering for my car. It's always a question of how much is this going to cost to achieve what I want to.

When we bought this house last year it was simply a question of asking the agent how much money I would have to pay to him and anyone else involved. It was then a question of did I think that was good value (whatever that might mean in any property market) and did I want to proceed with the purchase. As it happened I started a negotiation process and in so doing saved  about the cost of the notaire's fees but I never thought that I had managed to get the seller to pay the notaire.

Maybe I have a weird way of looking at financial transactions but it works for me.

Benjamin

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I think you are right, these transactions are far too complicated once you start looking into them and deciding that this bit is too dear, or room for some penny pinching on another. Its what it actually costs you as a final figure that counts, but even more important is to get value for money on the whole package. You may pay a few euros more to buy from one agent rather than another, for example, but you know you will get good service rather than being ignored once you have signed the papers. So that could be seen as better value. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how the agent and notaire are paid, it gets added to what the buyer shells out in every case.

As you have found out, there is often room for negotiation on agents' fees. Forget it though if you are buying at the bottom end of the market, or if you have gone through an English referral agency with whom the fees are shared, because in these cases the agent really is working to tight margins.

 

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[quote user="Llantony"]

I started all this!  No-one has yet answered my question about why French people say their houses will be cheaper if a buyer is not found via an estate agent when it's the buyer who pays the commission anyway.  We aren't really looking for another house, but were persuaded by 2 French friends to have a look at their properties and both said cheaper if we don't contact the agent.

But if we did want to buy, if prices are generally going down it would make us aware we might get more for our money.

[/quote]

Have you not answered your own question? Since there will be no agent, and no agents fee, the price will be less!

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[quote user="Cassis"]Good God SB!  What a photo and what a price!  [/quote]

And that's the kind of area I live in.   AND people are flooding into the area at an unbelievable rate every month, just unbelievable.

Our house cost more than that, because we have a pool and a massive 750m² terrain. 

Maybe you will all understand now why I don't find France particularly cheap!  [:D]

 

 

 

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I think it must be a regional thing, 2 houses have recently sold in our village , both say they got the asking price. One is a 3 bed 2 bathroom village house with garage and small terrace (no land) and went for 230.000 euro the other has a splash pool, land of around 150 sq metres 2 beds inthe main house with bathroom lounge and fitted kithen  with a small apartment(granny flat) which has a kitchenette showerroom and a bedroom and that went for 370.000euro.

 One of our neighbours has recently put his on the market as his wife can no longer manage the stairs(maison secondaire, he is Belgian ) He too has high hopes of having  a buyer before the end of the year, He wants 165.000 euros for his 2 bed modern (about 20 year old home) with bathroom. Lounge /fitted kitchen 2 terraces and garage with wood store for his open fire. He is aiming at the English market and has a French agent involved with a Brit who does the viewings, I am glad it is not my house he is "selling" as it is a whistle stop tour...........

 

To me they were all overpriced, but that is coming from someone who bought her 3 bed ,lounge kitchen diner with terrace and garden for under 85.000 euros less than 5 years ago.

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We purchased as originally a maison secondaire but now our main home in 2001 and the euro value then was I think 1.675 to the £

Finance and economics apart someone now if they are a UK buyer have to in relative terms organise their finance to take into account todays current rate and which is..................? and to that one has to add property increases here in France.

 

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Are you sure, Llwyn? I thought the euro had always traded between 1.43 and 1.51 or thereabouts.  Apologies if I've got this wrong.

EDITED - I certainly am wrong!  Apologies. 

Big change 2002-2003.

[img]https://www.ft.com/cms/2da16a20-98c3-11da-aa99-0000779e2340.gif[/img]

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