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French house prices fall


Llantony
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There was a slow down in British buyers, but things have showed signs of picking up again over the last weeks. As so often, the Telegraph is a bit behind the times (no pun intended). And it varies across the regions.

As for prices falling, that's a difficult one. The rate of increase has slowed, certainly, but a lot of sellers have not accepted that, resulting in them insisting on asking prices well above the true currrent market value. This means that if they need to sell, they have to accept offers, and 20% below their expectations is not unexpected. Some agencies have also been over-valuing, whether in hope of finding a naive buyer willing to pay over the odds, or to get mandats from potential sellers, or any other reason, such tactics are generally counter-productive in the longer term.

What figures are available in France (from notaires and FNAIM) show that house prices have generally been static - though some areas have recorded small increases. Any change from the previous situation is due to many economic factors - not only the number of British buyers, which is just one part of a much bigger equation.

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Our estate agent, when I spoke to her last autumn, said there weren't many British buyers. A new Dutch one had set up in the village - only giving house details in Dutch! (and on his website too) He said the British weren't buying any more.   I did notice quite a few Dutch cars around this summer but it seems a bit limiting not having French or English info.  That agency didn't seem to be open this summer tho....

Someone (French) I know is trying to sell his house to get money for his son's business.  Sadly the price of 200,000 euros is way too much for a house with no garden and only 1 bedroom so far.

I don't quite get why French sellers say 'cheaper if you don't go through the estate agent' as it's the buyer who pays the fee.  As everyone has to use a notaire it can't be a tax dodge.

 

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A friend has just sold after more than 14months on the market with no takers for a beautiful property and she has dropped the price by 120,000€ to get rid of it as she is so desperate. Many places on the market for the same time are still for sale and the prices not dropped. Locals cannot afford or are afraid to take on any loans currently with the elections coming and unrest in the air over wages etc.
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hard to tell with prices; the value has got to be what someone is prepared to pay!  i have looked closely at prices in several departments over a period of nearly 3 years and i would say that recent prices are static rather than falling.  we ourselves have just bought at, i think, quite a good price.  i do see lots of properties that still have "for sale" status for months and even years.  we made an offer on our house within a week of it's appearing on a website and the house next to it (same owner) also sold within days.  that tells me that we probably got the price right.  but, then again, i do see properties that, on the face of it, appear to be excellent value that haven't sold

there is one factor which is difficult to completely take account of and that is individual choice.  for example, some people like a huge garden, some don't, some like to renovate, some don't , etc etc.  i suppose we would have paid a lot more than we did purely because the house ticks most of the boxes for us.

i made a list of features that are absolutely essential, eg, at least 2 bathrooms, walking distance to shops, large garden, etc and a list of desirable but not essential features such as double-glazing, mains drainage, 2 living rooms and so on.  then, i drew up a matrix and scored all the properties we viewed.  i then narrowed the choice to the properties that scored the most points.  i was really worried at one stage that there would be 2 or more properties between which i could not decide. but, in the end, there was the one clear winner, which was a tremendous relief to me!

my own experience of the property market has always been to be realistic about price and, depending on how much you need to sell, my advice would be to be prepared to hang on till a buyer comes along who will pay you a price near to your asking one  

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It is a dead as a dodo around me.  I have been passing the same houses for sale for a couple of years now.

As you know, we have put Château Despair on the market and all the agents and Notaires we have had around say that the market is "not very energetic".

They are coming here on Thursday.

We would like to sell but really and truly, they don't cost us anything so we could just bide our time.  It will be a firm "Non" to silly offers, that is for certain.

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I find the Immobiliers amazing.

As has been said in this thread - people are not coming to view and sales are down.

With that type of scenario I would expect the agents to be as keen as mustard to follow up on any enquiry.

I have emailed some agents about properties and no reply. There was one on here who stated in a thread that they were super efficient etc. I emailed with our requirements and lo and behold, no reply.

I emailed on before our last visit and did not get a reply. Whilst in rance we decided that we needed to see the property. I telephoned the agent who arranged for the owner to show us around. Unfortunately, the location was not quite right otherwise we would have bought it.

I will admit that other agents do not let go and I have to give them 10 out of 10 for their efforts.

It is not as though the agents are charging the 0.75 - 1.5 percent that they are charging in the UK.

If the agents do not realise that when things are slow that alienating potential buyers will mean even less income then they deserve to bite the dust.

If I was an owner trying to sell my property then I would be very miffed at the manner in which the agents operate - or more precisely do not operate. Perhaps if you are about to place your property on the market try emailing the agents about a property on their books to see the reaction and then choose those that offer the best service. Whilst it effectively costs you nothing for the sale (but UK or French system the agent is paid so it is all a little acadaemic) it always gives me the impression of desperation when every agent in an area has a particular house.

I will admit I was shcoked by one agent yesterday. Emailed them am and they replied pm - they will ge a viewing out of this (the house looks as though it might suit) and I will pay closer attention to their site.

Paul

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Paul, the other side of the coin is interesting and may perhaps give you a little more insight into the problem.

Around 92% of UK clients who send us property enquiries do not even have the courtesy to reply to the emails we send them. We reply straight away to any enquiry, we ask questions to find out exactly what the client is looking for, we get in touch with all our contacts in our area and find properties as near to the clients' requirements as possible and send off the property details to them, send them information on other things that may help them, and try to provide exactly what they would want (& more). We know that people are reading our emails, and we always follow up to see if we have done what the clients needed and if we can help them further - result, in 92% of cases, zilch!

We know that our contacts in the area get the same results if UK clients go to them directly. I am afraid that those who treat people in France like dirt, when all they are doing is trying to help them, are getting the British a bad name and causing problems for the other 8% of people who are serious.

I could tell you lots more, but this may help to explain why a lot of Immos can't be bothered to reply to emails from the UK, & I know a lot of them now are concentrating on the French buyers because they say that the British are a waste of time (We do our best to convince them otherwise, but it is difficult at times!).

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Not excusing bad manners in not replying, and agreeing with what Tarn Granny has to say, it is also true that the person in the French office dealing with e-mails, updating web sites etc, is generally not the helpful individual who shows people round the houses, holds their hands through the sale process, and posts on forums like this. And I know that is a fault in the way the French agencies organise themselves that should be rectified rather than used as an excuse.

The latest monthly figures from FNAIM (a French national estate agents' organisation) show a small rise (1.75%) in houses over five years old, which is the market I would imagine most users of this forum would be most interested in. For apartments, the rise is over 2%. Maybe they would say that, but it's a rather different story from the Telegraph's 20% drop, which would appear to be based on a small sample of agencies dealing almost entirely with British clients.

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I would not wish to excuse such behaviour and on the basis that I was brought up to believe that if someone wrote to you (and here read email as well) that one is duty and courtesy bound to reply.  That is what I try to achieve.

However to the French and please forgive me but email wise they are in the dark ages.  They are reluctant to use the 'tool' of modern-day life.  Par example I want to buy a product that is manufactured in the UK but with a French agent.  Directed by the UK to the French agent so far so good.  Now twenty days later (and no they were not on holiday in August) no response.  UK get involved French say tant pis so what do we all agree to do is that the equipment is being couriered out by the UK at their cost.

Again want to buy a piece of kit valued UK wise at some £3000 again French agent still no response.

Faults on both sides.

 

 

 

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I've never had a problem with the French responding to e-mails.

E-mailed the MD of a truck rental company after one of their trucks tailgated me dangerously.  Received a nice reply apologising for the behaviour.

E-mailed my local DRIRE with a technical query.  They replied with the answer within a couple of days.

E-mailed DeDietrich France to ask for an English copy of my new central heating boiler manual.  Received a lengthy PDF file within 10 minutes.

E-mailed a technical company for a certificate of conformity for a friend's old MBG - reply received saying one was going out in the post that night.

And many more.....

When we were first researching our French house purchase, the immo we were dealing with at the time e-mailed us load of photos and plans after we asked for them.  When we asked a similar UK based house property website to provide more details and photos, they said they didn't have any because they preferred us to visit the property in the flesh.....[Www]

 

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[quote user="TarnGranny"]

Paul, the other side of the coin is interesting and may perhaps give you a little more insight into the problem.

Around 92% of UK clients who send us property enquiries do not even have the courtesy to reply to the emails we send them. We reply straight away to any enquiry, we ask questions to find out exactly what the client is looking for, we get in touch with all our contacts in our area and find properties as near to the clients' requirements as possible and send off the property details to them, send them information on other things that may help them, and try to provide exactly what they would want (& more). We know that people are reading our emails, and we always follow up to see if we have done what the clients needed and if we can help them further - result, in 92% of cases, zilch!

But isn't this exactly what happens in the UK property market and as a consequence is how British enquirers act? Who says they should operate in any different way just because they are enquiring in a foreign country or that they should somehow automatically know what is expected of them?

We know that our contacts in the area get the same results if UK clients go to them directly. I am afraid that those who treat people in France like dirt, when all they are doing is trying to help them, are getting the British a bad name and causing problems for the other 8% of people who are serious.

With all due respect you are not just  trying to help them, you and the immos are making a living from them.

I could tell you lots more, but this may help to explain why a lot of Immos can't be bothered to reply to emails from the UK, & I know a lot of them now are concentrating on the French buyers because they say that the British are a waste of time (We do our best to convince them otherwise, but it is difficult at times!).

More likely that since the numbers of Brit buyers coming through their front door's with shed loads of money and with no idea what a fallen down old barn is actually worth has now fallen dramatically. Now is the time for any half decent sales person to truly study their potential clientele and react accordingly not just put their head in the sand and ignore a potential revenue source.

Benjamin

[/quote]
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Reading through the thread and some of the comments I think there are a couple of issues that need to be addressed.

The first is ‘attitude’. By that I mean the thinking bit. Us Brits tend always to compare pricing, services etc against what we are used to in the UK and sometimes have a big problem understanding why or that things are different in other countries. We also have a habit of assuming things which as we all know can at best be silly and at the worse dangerous.

The French property market is designed to sell houses to the French and they have a system which they have designed over the years and it’s quite different to the UK. Pointing out that the charges for selling and buying a property are higher than the UK is OK but then that’s how it’s done in France. I expect a French agent would say they couldn’t possibly sell houses working on 1% commission (approx) in the UK. Houses in the UK do move a lot quicker that in France. I sold one house inside 8 hours, one in two weeks and a flat in a month. Many houses we saw here 4 years ago had been on the market around a year which is still quite the norm in my neck of the woods and it does not worry the French (only the English it would seem).

I agree with others here who have said that the Brits are not coming. We run a B&B and have had only a small handful of guest’s house hunting all year. I think that there are a couple of reasons for this. There is probably there is highest amount of debt per household now in the UK than ever before so money it tighter. Only this morning on the news they said that three quarters of a million house holders have missed at least one mortgage repayment this year and that another increase in interest rates will result in house repossessions going up dramatically.

The prices have risen in France over the last year but to say the prices are affected by the Brits is not really true. This is backed by the steep rise in residential letting prices over the last year or so as it says in the financial magazine I was reading in my doctors the other day (it was two months old).

Many Brits, for the reasons stated above, who are also looking for investment have now turned to countries that have recently joined the EU. They are experiencing massive growth rates in property prices and there are some very good buys to be had plus the buy to rent markets are very strong there and the cost of living very low. France was like that 10 or 15 years ago. People who bought then have had massive returns on their investments and it’s amazing the ‘run’ lasted so long.

Communicating with Notaires has always been an issue for many. Sometimes you get lucky but in general they either appear to do nothing or take ages to reply. We had this problem and to compare asking for technical information for boilers etc is not exactly the same thing (sorry SD). I have been told in many instances Notaires have not returned emails because they have either been written in English or extremely poor French and they just simply don’t understand them and they work on the principle of throwing it away and if its really important the person will try again. OK its not the way we work in the UK but its France and that’s what they do.

As to The Torygraph or most other UK news papers well after spending a few years living and working in France one learns that really they don’t have much of a clue and are often inaccurate so its best to ignore them. I think Will is right in that house prices have slowed due to the forthcoming elections and the state of uneasiness in France about what will happen after. I don’t see prices falling unless as Will again said the prices are put artificially high which is more often the case when it a Brit that’s selling.

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"But isn't this exactly what happens in the UK property market and as a consequence is how British enquirers act? Who says they should operate in any different way just because they are enquiring in a foreign country or that they should somehow automatically know what is expected of them?"

Exactly the point, if you intend to buy a property in another country you SHOULD do your homework and find out how the system works. It's very simple, go to an agent in that country and ask.

 

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Certainly different approach here, we have just bought an old place, when I went to the notaire the otherday to confirm everything, I said "Ok so yo have everything you need the papers, the money etc, sort it as quick as you can" the reply, "WHY?"

Anymore laid back and they'd be horizontal !!!

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i totally agree with quillan.  estate agents vary in their efficiency, same as everybody else.  some will email and follow up with phone calls, some will fail to reply.  what i did was to only deal with those that i got sensible replies from.  there was one agent who sent a "standard" reply so i rang them up to protest and ,after a profuse apology, they were quite helpful

i found the most helpful agents were in fact french rather than brits - unfailingly patient and professional.  i quite like the fact that you are mostly invited for an appointment at the office to begin with to tell them what sort of property you want, old or new, renovated or with work to do, countryside or urban and, of course, most importantly your budget.

to get the best service, be as specific as you can about the accommodation you need, number of bedrooms, garden, etc etc and how much you wish to spend (not forgetting the all important fees - agent's and notaire's)

in the end, we bought from a private seller because he happened to have the house we wanted and, when i notified the agents i had been dealing with, they all without exception wished us good luck in our new home.  how about that for graciousness and courtesy?

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It was Val_2 who mentioned the elections, not me, though I agree it could be an issue for French buyers and sellers. But as the French are used to houses being on the market for years it's probably less of a big deal than we may think. Inflated valuations are not a British thing - I think French sellers are just as guilty. For them, the logic seems to be that they have heard the stories about British with loads of money who will pay a fortune for a ruin, so they want to try their luck. Also, they may (like many British sellers) need to realise a certain amount of money from a sale, and their own valuation is based on that. Often it is too low for the market, in which case most notaires or agents, depending on their outlook, will either take it with glee, knowing that there is a quick and easy sale (or even buy it himself, seeing a profit) or will up it, with he seller's agreement, to a price that is closer to the true market price but should still sell easily. More often though the price demanded is too high, and the house wil sit on the market until the market catches up with the price (rather difficult in a static or slow market) - again, the 'house taking years to sell' scenario that would be disastrous in England but holds no fears for many French.

Unfortunately trying to draw comparisons between two systems that work so differently, as others have said, merely colours the basic issues, and, as the Telegraph has demonstrated, can be distorted to demonstrate anything. Trouble is, because it is in a so-called quality' paper, people tend to believe it, even when it is clearly flawed logic based on an unrepresentative sample.

Nice to see this debate being carried on in a sensible fashion, unlike another forum where the originator asked people what they thought about the article and then refuses in rather illiterate fashion (why do these people have such an incommplete grasp of basic English grammar?) to accept anybody's point of view - not even the Telegraph's.

Edit - two interesting points from the post above. First, the old thing about buyers being specific. Fine in principle, but any agent will tell you that buyers can often be very specific about their requirements, budgets, etc but when they get out and start viewing they can often fall in love with a place that ticks few if any of their boxes, and 'specifics' go out of the window. An important skill in the agent's job is in interpreting the buyers' wishes and matching people with houses. Some are better than others, of course. Also, DO always go to the agent's offices first. Be very wary indeed of the sort of agent that meets you in a supermarket car park.

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I remember years ago when looking in the UK - describe what you are looking for to a UK agent then wait and get info on loads of totally inappropriate properties that don't match any of your requirements. "Looking for old character rural property" -> expect details on loads of new housing estate maisonettes built by some mega corporation.

I wonder if the areas British people are looking in may have changed. If looking for a 2nd property, then maybe transport costs and time mean the South of France is now considered a bit too far. When I moved here nearly 3 years ago I was the only British person in either of my communes. Now there are apparently several (though I've not met them). I noticed the other day that a local supermarket now has a "Specialities" section - things like Robinsons Barley Water Squash, Ambrosia Creamed Rice Pudding, etc. I guess there must be more British people turning-up.

No idea what has happened to the value of my place. Estate agent called round a couple of months ago as she had somebody looking for a specialist property (they wanted a river - which I had) and they thought an asking price 50% above the previous sellers got from me was about right (she had no idea what it was previously sold for so did not work it out on so much per year. That said, an old mill like my house must be difficult to value as its a "bit different".

Ian
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"More often though the price demanded is too high, and the house wil sit on the market until the market catches up with the price (rather difficult in a static or slow market) - again, the 'house taking years to sell' scenario that would be disastrous in England but holds no fears for many French."

Spot on Will, thats exactly how we got ours. If you catch it just right which is more down to luck than anything else you can get the property just before the owners put the price up a bit more for the following year. One thing our agent did do was when they recieved our offer and it was refused by the owner was to go along at the risk of loosing the sale and their commision and told the seller 'how it is'.

Of course some of the French sell and have a new house built. They pay for the land and round here there is still a two year wait to get the house started (if you want the best builders) so they are quite happy to sit round almost to the last minute for a sale and if somebody offers a large sum of money in the mean time they sell and go live in rented accomodation. It's what the French do [:)] . To be honest who can blame them wouldn't we all like to able to do that?

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Interestingly we have just had our weekly pile of pub and the monthly immobilier ones with all the properties they are trying to sell round the region and to me, the prices currently really do seem to be dropping back down. Even my friend's house which was sold last w/end at a drop of 120000€ from the original asking price is still being advertised at 20000€ less than last month's pub by one of the agents although it was the local notaire who sold it at well under all the immos prices - people are very cagey about paying all this commission these days when notaires have the same property for sale.
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One small point to raise on this subject: did anyone else, like me, wonder for a moment why the Telegraph had chosen to publish this article at the end of the summer, when buyers' interest might have begun to wane for a while? The answer seems pretty clear - in the right-hand column on the same page it proffers, for those interested in a longer term investment in French property, details of the upcoming French Property Exhibition, for which guess who - the Telegraph - is one of the sponsors! As I'm hoping to sign the Acte de Vente for my tiny stone cottage in the Suisse Normande in a couple of weeks' time, after a long property search, I allowed myself a wry smile...
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