Jump to content

Certification of electrical work


Recommended Posts

Electrics on the house I have just acquired were replaced by the Brit builder who did house renovations. Surveyor I employed confirmed that what he could see appeared OK but unfortunately confirmation of conformity was not forthcoming (as had been promised) at the signing of the acte authentique. Has anyone out there had electrics checked out by EDF or an electrician on a house they have already bought and if so, can I ask for the system to be tested and a certificate supplied (for a fee, doubtless)? Any helpful info would be very gratefully received!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You need to contact an organisation called Consuel 0141978666 www.consuel.com to request an attestation which you fill out and send off, once received and verified as correct they will send an inspector who will grant a visa or give you a list of non-conformities to rectify to get the visa.

The cost dependant on size of property will be 100+ euros.

I am currently awaiting the inspection visit, be warned that there are many requirements but only new builds, total renovations or propertys requiring a new connection from EDF have to have the visa, in your case you will be more concerned with safety rather than meeting all the normes.

The inspectors primary responsibilty is safety and he will be more concerned with equipotential bonding in the bathroom than whether you have the required telephone socket beside a power point in the kitchen and bedroom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, J.R., that's tremendously helpful. My main concern is of course safety but I also want to know that the house insurance would not be invalidated in case of any claim (heaven forbid!). I don't know either, Poppy, what equipotential bonding is - but I have a feeling I'm about to find out!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

J.R. - or whoever else - have had a quick check on the Internet to investigate equipotential bonding ... so how's the Inspector going to check on this without ripping out the newly plasterboarded and plastered walls? I hope I'm missing something here!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We do a fair bit with CONSUEL inspections and they do not rip out plasterboard to see behind. The inspector has a list to comply with and is more concerned with the fusebox and disjoncteurs etc, the correct fittings in the correct place and cabling used,the stipulated requirements regarding telephone points and power sockets and use of European standards light fittings and not cheap Brico rubbish which will be rejected,the correc fuses for cookers etc, heating arrangements if electric is used, circuits either tri or monophase and so on. Anything rejected has to be corrected within a stipulated period and if serious, involves another fee and another inspection otherwise you will normally receive the attestation de conformité fairly quickly. Paris is the head office where you must WRITE personally to request the paperwork first and enclose your fee and then you contact your regional office for their inspector to come out and they will demand usually a detailed map of the property and region.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick question - what are you needing a c-of-c for? Unless it is a recent (new) installation then one probably does not exist. The main use of a CONSUEL c-of-c is to get a new supply from EDF (ie. a supply where one did not exist before). If you are worried about the condition of the wiring, then any decent electrician will "survey" the wiring for you.

If the installation is old, CONSUEL will just "fail" it, as it is bound not to come up to their standards - but you probably know that already!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Val, for the reassurance that the inspector won't rip the place apart! The answer to Nick's question is that, as I understand it, because the place was rewired by a Brit rather than a French artisan, I need to be sure that the work complies as I don't have any certification at all, and I gather that if I can't produce some proof that it is up to standard my house insurance will be invalidated if there is ever any need to make a clairm - which I hope won't occur, obviously! Maybe it would be enough for an electrician to test the system - but presumably I still wouldn't receive any paperwork for future reference (hence my point about the house insurance)?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you may have been reading too many forums about living in France !

If there is anything obviously wrong with your electrics - i.e. you can see that English 13A sockets have been installed or there is evidence that twin & earth cable has been clipped along the walls then you should simply call in a French electrician to get a quote for putting it right. If there is nothing evident, and you have no good reason to believe that there is anything unsafe about it, then I really wouldn't worry. No insurance company is likely to hold you responsible for any work that was done before you bought the house in this case. If you have any doubt about it whatsoever then the first people to talk to would be your insurance company. Call into their local office and ask them their advice. You'll probably find your question will be met with a shrug and a look of bemusement but at least you will have asked the question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Equipotential bonding is the earthing of pipes (not plastic) and metallic structures (shower cabin frames) within zones 1,2 and 3 in the bathroom. It is probably of the highest priority to the inspector in terms of safety (which is what he is there for).

He will not need to remove plasterboard to test it (he can use his meter) but the connections, which should be of a special type, should be accessible anyway to comply with the normes.

Where copper pipes are used it is not sufficient that they are grounded at the point of commencement (by stop cock) this must be repeated again in the bathroom. The reason for this is in case someone repairs a leak by using a section of plastic pipe.

Eslier is right regarding insurance, any older property would not meet the latest norms,  you should see the 80+ year old cloth insulated (nearly!) wiring here, it does not frighten me too much but I have an understanding of the subject and am in the process of replacing it all anyway.

If you are worried and really want an inspection then I would still reccomend a consuel visit, it would be cheaper than the organistaion mentioned, they certainly would come within 20 days (I waited over a year before seeing the last of 4 electricians asked) and will certainly do a proper inspection without wanting to A: quote you for work they would like to do (replacing tableau) or B: conveniently ignore more important things because it would be a grotty job for them to redo.

If you are concerned and considering an inspection then I can post a few obvious things that you can check to see if the electrician may have done things contrary to the normes to save money. You will need to tell me when the house was rewired and whether habitable surface area is less than 35 square metres, between 35 and 100 or over 100. and whetehr you have electric heating.

Whatever don't worry yourself unduly, would you have the same concerns if you bought a house in the UK from a French DIY enthusiast? if the answer is yes then get a safety inspection done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trip trip

The zoning refers to bath or shower rooms (salles d'eau NF C 15-100) , there are no zones as such for kitchens however sockets cannot be placed above a sink or hob. This can be a particular test for those installing a kitchenette as the normes also require 4 power points above the worktop.

Sorry for using terms like grounding and equipotential bonding, yes it is earthing but a more specific visible requirement. You cannot for instance rely on the earth wire to the ballon de chauffe in lieu of the supplementary equipotential bonding, oh dear I have now introduced an even longer tech term/buzz word!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, J.R., for your very useful posts. I guess my worries arise from the fact that the previous owner had assured both me and the estate agent that he would bring proof of conformity to the signing of the acte authentique, and he then arrived without it. Admittedly he appears to have left it all till the last minute but whether this was by accident or on purpose I shall never know! Hence he aroused my suspicions. If you could, as you offered, post a few obvious things to check to see if the electrician may have done things contrary to regulations to save money, that would be great. The info you asked for is as follows: the house was rewired this year, the habitable surface area is between 35 and 100 square metres, and currently there is no electric heating. Many thanks to you and the others who have taken the time to post replies to my query - it's great to know there are folks out there who are willing to help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having visited many many british owned properties here over the years to give devis etc, it still sickens us that previous british owners have installed electricity with absolutely no idea of what they were doing or how dangerous the end results are as long as it works. It is due to seeing all these deathtraps that I get so cross that people are allowed to do this sort of thing and then when selling, pass it onto the next gullible person. In the meantime I hope your property hasn't had such novice electrics installed and that you will be certified safe by a proper electrician.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Val_2"]Having visited many many british owned properties here over the years to give devis etc, it still sickens us that previous british owners have installed electricity with absolutely no idea of what they were doing or how dangerous the end results are as long as it works. It is due to seeing all these deathtraps that I get so cross that people are allowed to do this sort of thing and then when selling, pass it onto the next gullible person. In the meantime I hope your property hasn't had such novice electrics installed and that you will be certified safe by a proper electrician.[/quote]

How can you stop them, its personal freedom, private property etc. If someone wants to put themselves in harms way in private its just not practical to stop them in a 'free' society.

I would hazard a guess that there are a number of non-British bodgers around also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="powerdesal"]


How can you stop them, its personal freedom, private property etc. If someone wants to put themselves in harms way in private its just not practical to stop them in a 'free' society.

[/quote]

But this isn't really the case, Steve. In France, if a house is deemed unsafe, then you can be compelled to correct it. In the so-called "free" UK, it is a criminal offence to rewire your house.

Wearing seatbelts (in the privacy of your own car) is mandatory throughout most of the 1st (free) world....

We Europeans have, in reality, very little "personal freedom". Of course, in the Middle East everyone is free!!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a quick update to say that I passed the consuel today and learned a lot in the process.

When the inspector arrived and realised that I was English he groaned and I could see him thinking "God not another one" he tactfully asked me if I had ever heard of the French Normes and did I realise that they were different to England?

I jokingly replied "No!" and showed him into the Gazebo/tent/ buried in roof insulation on the ground floor that I currently live in to keep warm, I then asked him to certify all the electrics (heater, TV, sattelite, light etc) connected to a single UK extension lead and he was speechless.

Finally I took him out back to the newly completed flat and he was a lot happier!

Clueless has PM'd me to ask me to post some things for her to look for on her wiring, I have a guest at the moment but will do so as soon as I can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

O.K.

Got up early so have some time to post the initial things to look for, I will keep it relatively short for the time being and will add more later if necessary.

Clueless, you need to start at your tableau (fuseboard) this is the principal area where savings could be made. Make sure it is a not a British one, it should look many times bigger than you would expect in a British house. A french one will be 250mm wide, the correct one for your dwelling would have 3 rows, It "should" have a schema (circuit diagram) attached to it somewhere completed by the installing or commissioning electrician.

Next look to see that it has at least 3 "disjoncteur differentials" (R.C.D.s) one of which should be marked type A, the others type AC. The type A should run the specialised circuits, hob, washing machine and possibly freezer and computer.

If all well so far take off the cover to see that the circuit breakers are French double pole ones, they each should have one (or more) red (or brown) wire and one (or more) blue wire coming out of the bottom, not just one single wire colour of red or brown.

Check that the cables are not U.K. flat twin and earth and that a ring main has not been used, generally most circuit breakers should have only one pair of wires (red/blue or brown/blue) coming out the bottom, some may have more as it is permissable to run more than one radial feed but if the majority have two then it could indicate ring main wiring.

Also check how the cabling has been run around the house, all cables should be capable of being replaced in there entirety without ripping up floors or plasterboard, the following are acceptable:

Surface clipped 3 core round cable, however where it passes through walls/partitions it should be in a "gaine" (flexible conduit)

Single wires in surface moulures (mini-trunking)

All hidden cabling (behind plasterboard, channeled into walls under floors, over ceilings etc) should be individual wires in gaines.

All wiring in the cellar should be run in plastic conduit and not like the Brit on TV the other night who had to pay the electrician 10000 euros to redo his wiring (no going back Chateau C.D.H. type program).

All of what I have posted above is correct for a total rewire, however unless it was done as part of an works involving a permis de construire it could be argued that the non-conforming bits were always there, predated the relevant normes and that the rewire was only partial. For instance the type A disjoncteur is not obligatory for renovations or partial rewires/changes of tableau.

If you can tick most of the above boxes you can rest easy, but be concerned if you find an English fuse board, circuit breakers or cabling.

If you want I can do a further post showing how many plugs etc are allowed on each cable and the minimum requirements for each room, but for now this should give you more than enough to go on.

Good luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="nicktrollope"]

[quote user="powerdesal"]


How can you stop them, its personal freedom, private property etc. If someone wants to put themselves in harms way in private its just not practical to stop them in a 'free' society.

[/quote]

But this isn't really the case, Steve. In France, if a house is deemed unsafe, then you can be compelled to correct it. In the so-called "free" UK, it is a criminal offence to rewire your house.

Wearing seatbelts (in the privacy of your own car) is mandatory throughout most of the 1st (free) world....

We Europeans have, in reality, very little "personal freedom". Of course, in the Middle East everyone is free!!

 

 

[/quote]

Nick,

Perhaps I could have expressed myself more clearly, the impractical nature of stopping people stems from the fact that the kit is freely available in the Bricos etc, and, barring the use of CCTV in every home there is no way of stopping individuals being unsafe or illegal in their work inside their own four walls. The problems obviously come to light when they either sell or have an accident/incident/house fire etc. I got the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the poster I replied to was in favour of not 'allowing' people to do such things. The only way I could see to achieve that would be to restrict the sale of electrical stuff to certificated licence holding professional artisans. I believe that NZ tried something similar some years ago whereby a 'non-qualified' person was not even allowed to change a plug on an appliance. It's not like that now I believe, it probably didn't work ( how could it be policed ?)

Your analogy with seatbelts is a bit spurious, you are on public view, not in the privacy of your own home. We in the ME also have seatbelt laws, and mobile phone use whilst driving laws.

I assume your comment about everyone in the M.E being free was meant to be humerous. Surprisingly enough, when I sat and thought about personal freedom here vis-a-vis UK I became pleasantly surprised. Its true we are not free to buy as much booze as we want at any supermarket but equally we are free from streets that look like a vomitorium each week end. We do not have freedom to critiscise the Govt, but what has that freedom achieved in UK ? My wife is 'free' to walk in the city streets in perfect safety be it night or day. I dont think that can be said about UK. In all I think you were pretty much right with your Middle East "free" comment.

 

Regards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

J.R. - you're a star! Thanks a bunch for taking the time to post all that useful info - I shall look in some trepidation when I go over to France in a couple of weeks but maybe my mind will be put at rest right away, which would be great. So glad to hear you passed your consuel inspection - well done - I bet you're feeling pretty pleased with yourself today. I'd love to have seen the inspector's face when you showed him the electrics in your temporary accommodation - I bet he was relieved when he moved on to the flat!! I'll post again when I return from France and hope to confirm a happy ending to this tale. Meanwhile, I'm sure the info you've given me will help other forum members too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...