What do estate agents do to justify 7 or 8% commission? Or even 10%!

[Le 47]

I have put a house up for sale with some local agents and have had to fight to keep the commission/fees down to 7%  with 3 of the 4 we are with.

I know they provide a service and facilitate finding a buyer etc but the desire to get higher and higher levels of fees seems to me to be bordering on greed.  I have been told by a couple of agents (when I asjked for a lower level of  fees) that the vendor doesn't pay so why are you concerned.

IMHO the vendor does pay because the overall figure of cost to buy must surely be the relevant figure for the purchaser. The fees to the agent in effect reduce the net figure to the vendor.

I think that all vendors should make a positive effort to keep a lid on the fee levels.

Bill

[hastobe]

I know this topic has been discussed lots of times before - but I agree.  Estate agents fees in France are a complete rip off - another case of state protectionism.  And yes, I agree, it has to affect what the seller will get - pretty much every buyer has a budget and the more money that has to be spent on fees the less there is to spend on the house.

We bought our house through a notaire - paid commission of 2% plus TVA and got a brilliant service.  If the notaires can do it why can't the immobiliers?

Kathie

[ChezShells]

totally agree.

I know they have to earn a living and they do a lot of travelling and they are on commission only etc etc

we have just put our house on the market and we was happy to put it on at x amount, then with their fees it probably doesn't look so desirable,
so when it comes to negotiating they dont seem to knock much off if anything from their fees and if a sale goes through the only one whos come out the happiest is the agent.

Many agents do lower their fees but some are IMO are greedy.

Plus i've known notaires to advertise properties for exactly the same as the agents.

[Ron Avery]

Oh not this old chestnut again, what was that about dredging the bowels of the Forum for topics?

French agents work long hours, in most cases unlike UK agents, they take the prospective buyers to the houses , they can drive 100s of Kms in  a day,  in many cases just to look at a couple of houses, and in a lot of cases for no sale.  They also have premises to maintain and turnover is often slow.  Perhaps ask yourself why Bairstow Eves charge 3% in the UK for putting an advert in the local paper and then letting you show their clients round your house!!. If you paid 2% commission Kathy with a Notaire you were very, very lucky, you sure you did not pay any fees like honoraires des négociation in the bill somewhere, cos that was their Agents fee,  their legal fees go on top.

[Will]

As Ron says, this has been done to death on the forum many times. Those who object to paying for a service are quite at liberty to buy and sell privately, though when you find yourself conned through a private sale by agreeing to buy a property that an agent would not touch then you are likely to find out one of the reasons why going it alone is not always a good idea when you are unfamiliar with the French system. There are many reasons for the seemingly high fees, try working as an agent in France to get a feel for it. It is, contrary to popular belief, a highly competitive business rather than a cartel aimed at conning the English buyer. If any one agent could gain a market advantage by significantly undercutting the others, they would do so.

Notaires are a bit of a red herring - they are, in effect, government officials, who are allowed to sell houses as a bit of a sideline (though some do very well at it) and their commission is limited by law. So most of their overheads are already covered through their associated legal work. 'State protectionism' applies only to notaires, not agents, who operate in a free market, and if a notaire has a house on sale for the same commission-inclusive price as an agent (FAI) then it's not the agent who is profiteering.

Again, contrary to popular belief, estate agents in France do not all own Porsches. At our local agent, for example, you will see that the boss has a Fiat Punto and her right-hand person (who happens to be Mrs Will) a 206. It's the notaires who swan around in Jaguars and Mercedes. The wealthy agents usually make their money through other activities like franchising to sub-offices, or through associated businesses like marchand de biens (property development).

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

  Perhaps ask yourself why Bairstow Eves charge 3% in the UK for putting an advert in the local paper and then letting you show their clients round your house!!.

 [/quote]

 

However, ask yourself also why, if you request a UK agent to conduct, or be present at all your viewings, it doesn't cost you any more than the agreed commission rate. Bit of a red herring, that one, Ron.

[Bob T]

And then ask the UK agent to arrange all the Solicitor stuff and be present, with the English speaker from his office there. Ask him to arrange to get the phone connected and the electricity changed over. The ask if he will help you out for the first couple of years when you need it. These are all things that my French estate agent did for me at no extra cost.

[Ron Avery]

No it does not cost any more than the 3% that you will pay for little effort by a UK agent, Betty but do you really believe that you are going to get an agent do all your viewings with High Street agents n the UK?  All they do is phone up with the appointment and if you cannot do it they change the time and date.  I asked once an agent viewing when they dumped a Sunday viewing on me Saturday afternoo, and after a lot of well we are very busy ( playing squash etc)  they agreed and I got the locum agent, he did not even work for them or know where the property was  let alone its selling points Oh but he did drive all of 8 kms to the viewing.  French agents work for their commission and earn it , good luck to them

[KathyC]

Whilst I agree with your final statement about French agents earning their commission, I think you may be a bit out of date with the situation in the UK. Whilst I can remember the days when the vendor's phone number was on the house details (!!), it seems normal practice nowadays to have accompanied viewings. Most agents have a key so that they can show the property when the vendor is out, as well as doing accompanied visits if they're in. Obviously there's the odd occasion when they may ask you to go it alone when the buyer has a limited time slot and they're already booked, but I do think that this is the exception.

As far as knowing the selling points of a property goes, I wouldn't say there's much to choose between French and English agents. "This is the kitchen" (school of the bleedin' obvious) or it's French equivalent is often their main contribution.

[BJSLIV]

Its worth remembering that Estate Agents are a relatively new thing in France. Twenty years ago when we first started looking at French properties  virtually all sales, outside the biggest cities, were handled by the notaires. Estate agents got their foot in the door precisely because they did offer something extra. People were prepared to pay for a bit of sales and marketing  effort and a real shop window. The notaires were a bit too happy to put the details in their files, and if you were lucky their picture frame oustide , and then sit back and wait for a sale to arrive a couple of years later.

I suspect that now that prices have risen in real terms people are finding the 8 to 10% a bit on the high side. 10% of the typical 200,000 franc property 15 years ago didn't seem too much. So now we have the appearance of a network of low cost (4%) agents operating through a Franchise arrangement. Incidentally I think you will find that most Notaires charge 5%  for their estate agent activity.

[Will]

Notaires charge 5% 'negotiation fee' on cheap properties, reducing to 2.5% on more expensive houses etc. With today's prices just about all houses, other than complete wrecks, are in the 2.5% range. Other notaires' transactions, like sale of a field etc, are to other set scales so you can sometimes end up paying far more in sales and legal fees than you do for the land itself. These are maximum figures - sometimes reduced fees are offered - and notaires' commissions are subject to 19.6% TVA, whereas most agency fees are quoted inclusive of TVA.

It would be interesting to know more about the low-cost franchises - I don't exactly see how this could work, particularly in some prefectures where they apparently insist on there being a holder of a full carte professionelle in each office. Because of shared commissions etc, operating a franchised agency is more expensive anyway, so they must be cutting corners in other respects to make 4% viable.

[Gardian]

Whichever way you look at it, agent fees over here are considerably more than those in the UK and the points made about the amount of travel involved, general help in the conveyancing process and after-sale assistance to new arrivals are all valid.

My issue is with the quality of marketing by the majority of agents that I have come across.  I find the 'particulars' of properties that are on their books decidedly unappealing - they rarely generate a 'must see' feeling.  Amateurish photography, just one picture, undescriptive details.  For the sale of our UK property, the agents produced a 4 page A4 mini-brochure, which showed off the property to it's best advantage.

Websites are left un-updated.  Email enquiries aren't followed up (yes, I'm sure that many UK enquirers are time wasters, but you can't make that assumption - they should at least be pursued with a polite enquiry).

They're not all like this, but in my experience, most are.   

[hastobe]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

If you paid 2% commission Kathy with a Notaire you were very, very lucky, you sure you did not pay any fees like honoraires des négociation in the bill somewhere, cos that was their Agents fee,  their legal fees go on top.

[/quote]

No the 2% was the negotiation fee.  The notaires fees for the conveyance were separate - about 6.5% of the net vendor price as I recall - and most of that is actually tax (and so not retained by the notaire).  The house we bought was placed with estate agents as well and by comparison the fees that the estate agents were charging  were 1.5 times the total fees (excluding tax) that the notaire received - and the notaire negotiated the sale (driving us to view this property and several others), did all the legal work, provided us with comprehensive tax advice (the actual drawing up of the communaute universalle was charged extra), they arranged for the water and electric to be connected (including spending a whole afternoon at the house waiting for EDF - who failed to turn up first time around) - they even offered us advice on schooling etc....and said they would be available at the end of the phone if we had any other queries.

No comparison in my book.

Kathie

As an aside I think UK estate agents are a rip off too - in the twenty five years we have been buying and selling house we have never used an agent - we have always bought and sold privately.

[Russethouse]

I think there is a bit of a rosy glow somewhere - I remember a certain lady living in France telling us that there was no way that any of the estate agents she knew of would be interested in any of the hand holding stuff, the fees were not any less though.

[fulcrum]

I happen to think that having a "GOOD" agent to deal with buying and selling a property in France, is a good thing. If they are good they will act as a buffer between you and any peculiarities  in a property deal. And as someone else stated , they do lots of little things, for free, to help the deal along the way.

If the agent isn't doing anything apart from taking a commision on an otherwise simple deal then maybe you should just go to a notaire. However if you get into a dispute with a notaire over legalities and or the size of your final bill then you may be in a very awkward position trying to argue your case. Whearas a good agent will have prepared all the necessary things and hopefully make the transaction go smoothly.

[fulcrum]

[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Ron Avery"]

If you paid 2% commission Kathy with a Notaire you were very, very lucky, you sure you did not pay any fees like honoraires des négociation in the bill somewhere, cos that was their Agents fee,  their legal fees go on top.

[/quote]

As an aside I think UK estate agents are a rip off too - in the twenty five years we have been buying and selling house we have never used an agent - we have always bought and sold privately.

[/quote]

I think that the UK is very different to France for one reason. The solicitor who does the conveyancing is also there to advise on the legalities of the deal. It is therefore easier to do your own thing in the UK with regard to buying and selling in the UK..

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

French agents work long hours, in most cases unlike UK agents, they take the prospective buyers to the houses , they can drive 100s of Kms in  a day,  in many cases just to look at a couple of houses, and in a lot of cases for no sale.  [/quote]

But that's not MY problem!   Our house was in the same village as the estate agent's, and she did NOTHING, absolutely nothing for us except show us around a couple of times and tell us how COSY we'd be in it.  [+o(]

Some of you might have seen my picture on another thread of a local house for sale.  Very, very ordinary indeed, for over 400 000 euros.   Any %age on prices round here is a LOT of money.    No WAY do they deserve that much, no way.   There's so much at stake for them on a sale here, they'd sell their souls to force it through.

 

  

  

[Le 47]

Hi Ron

You said

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Oh not this old chestnut again, what was that about dredging the bowels of the Forum for topics?

[/quote]

Were you by any chance having a pop at me for raising this topic?

Bairstow Eves may try to charge 3% but in many areas (most areas perhaps?) there is competition and the possibility of using an agent who only charges 1.5 to 2 %. If the agent you instruct initially wont do what you want you can easily find another. I have sold a numcber of houses min the UK and never paid more than 2%.

Bill

[Will]

I honestly don't see the point in trying to compare France and Britain. They are two different countries, with two totally different systems and financial infrastructures, both for running businesses and buying/selling houses. OK, you pay more in France for things like estate agency, Marmite and gardening services, but I don't see too many comments about the many things that cost less (unless they are turned round into a 'rip off Britain' type argument). Comparison of estate agency fees between different countries is even less relevant than comparing agents' and notaires' fees and services in France.

If making comparisons, do compare like with like. Comments about SB's example of French agents still charging high percentages on 400,000€ houses would be more meaningful. My guess is that they do it because they can, and that's the going rate. Although agents are comparatively new in a lot of France, they seem to have been around for much longer in the areas where French people really want to buy, like the cities and the swanky coastal areas, and where prices really have rocketed. Their fees reflect this - its a similar argument as to why you buy a Louis Vuitton handbag rather than one from M&S. Neither holds more, nor probably uses better materials or is even better made, it's just that one commands a price many times that of the other, and some people will always buy the more expensive one. Of course, in that example choice comes into it, whereas if you have to live in an expensive area there isn't a choice.

[hastobe]

Our view exactly hence why we used a notaire.  Out of principle, we wouldn't have wasted that sort of money on agents fees - even if it took longer to find what we wanted.  If people elected only to buy privately or through a notaire then agents would have to reduce their fees.  But while people are daft enough / rich enough to donate money to them, their fees will stay at a ridiculous level.

Kathie

[Eslier]

[quote user="Will "]

I honestly don't see the point in trying to compare France and Britain. They are two different countries, with two totally different systems and financial infrastructures, both for running businesses and buying/selling houses. OK, you pay more in France for things like estate agency, Marmite and gardening services, but I don't see too many comments about the many things that cost less (unless they are turned round into a 'rip off Britain' type argument).

[/quote]

Very well said Will. I couldn't agree more.  I'm afraid that resentment against others for simply making a living or running a successful business seems to be an unfortunate British trait. We all have a choice as to which services we choose to make use of, which products we choose to buy and which country we choose to live in. In the end it simply comes down to what something is worth to each individual.

[andyh4]

[quote user="hastobe"].  If people elected only to buy privately or through a notaire then agents would have to reduce their fees.  But while people are daft enough / rich enough to donate money to them, their fees will stay at a ridiculous level.

Kathie
[/quote]

 

Ah but there's the rub.  In my experience (ie the areas of France I was looking to buy) notaires are very poor at advertising their properties - and on the internet even worse, so if we give the poor (I was not looking in SBs part of the world) old estate agent a good kicking and half or more go out of business, then how does an outsider (ie Brit buying abroad) establish what is the "right" price for a property, since there is nothing to compare with.

It's not an easy one.

[Pip]

I don't know if we have just been lucky with our uk estate agent but we have just been quoted a fee of 1.8% (negotiable for sole agency) and have been told that one of their staff will conduct viewings so we do not have to worry.  This particular agent (we got valuations from more than one) spent over an hour and a half with us, finally leaving after 7 pm.  It took another one less than half an hour !  We know which one we will choose when the time comes and it appears there are still some agents around in the uk ready to go the extra mile !

[hastobe]

[quote user="andyh4"]

[quote user="hastobe"].  If people elected only to buy privately or through a notaire then agents would have to reduce their fees.  But while people are daft enough / rich enough to donate money to them, their fees will stay at a ridiculous level.

Kathie

[/quote]

 

Ah but there's the rub.  In my experience (ie the areas of France I was looking to buy) notaires are very poor at advertising their properties - and on the internet even worse, so if we give the poor (I was not looking in SBs part of the world) old estate agent a good kicking and half or more go out of business, then how does an outsider (ie Brit buying abroad) establish what is the "right" price for a property, since there is nothing to compare with.

It's not an easy one.

[/quote]

Use yellow pages and telephone the notaires?  Actually go to France and drive around??

Kathie

[Miki]

Changes are certainly afoot, to my mind we may well be entering a new period in house sales here.

Seen in Dinan, in a new Agence Immobiliers window this morning  .........................1.8% to 3.8% commission

I am taking no sides in this, we have bought all our places in 3 different ways here but, are the new boys intending to blow the old guards traditional ways out of the water and let's be totally honest here, anyone defending the commission deal now......Well if it now means less to pay, is anyone going to argue with that ? I'm not and we are hoping to seek a place soon, think I'll wait a bit, it might go even lower if competition hots up !

As for buying through a Notaire, we have always bought wherever we wanted or needed to be, either for commerce or living and if it isn't available in a Notaires, then my choices are, to buy privately (not always that easy to find a private sale in the place you want to be) or as most do, buy through an agency and see if we can negotiate, if we can, great, if we can't get the deal we would like,  well if it is OK for our budget,  that is sadly the way we have to pay........Looking purely at Notaires, means going where they have a place, they have nothing like the choice that the immos have.