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stud walls and plaster board


Kel
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Does anyone have experience of using the French metal studding instead of wood for building stud walls.

I'm interested in using the metal variety if it is easier or cheaper than the wood.

I've checked out several web sites and it does look relatively simple but also a little bit flimsy.

Also, what is the correct French term for multi finish plaster? I've been told several things and don't want to appear stupid at the Brico Depot
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The use of metal v wood for stud walling has been discussed at some length recently on the TotalFrance forum. Unfortunately TF appears to be down at present but I'll post the link later.

We have used metal railing for all our plasterboarding and are well pleased. It seems very rigid but until you get it all fixed up and boarded it will appear flimsy. Although expensive buy the right tools for the job, crimper, cutter and screwdriver bit and it's a piece of cake. If you are in the Charente come and have a look! Have no idea about cost comparisons I'm afraid. My partner wanted to use French methods as far as possible for the renovations and as he worked with a French builder, he got the hang (excuse the pun) of metal railing really quickly. Sawing wood would have been really time consuming.

For plaster which gives working time, buy Lutece 2000L or 3000L.

Good luck.
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Thank you all for all that. I think I will go with the metal fittings.

Another obvious question though. Where is the most competitive place to buy all my plasterboard from? Are Brico Depots as good as a regular builders merchants or is there a price difference. I shall be using both the 13mm "grey board" and the 13mm hydro "green board"
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Unless you've got a big truck I would order it from the builder merchants and get them to deliver it. Put the whole order together, metal stud, plasterboard, rockwool, screws, joint tape, joint filler (Preglys-85 ?)etc. and then you might be able to negotiate a bit of discount. Allow for the fact that it might take three or four days from when you order it before they can deliver.

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I’m planning on using it to convert an attic. To my mind it must be lighter than wood and less prone to getting invaded by bugs. I’ve just got to work out spacing, etc.

One question. For a “suspended” ceiling (i.e. no floor above), can one use the metal and if so, does one use larger or special ceiling “beams” (or does one just support the standard "wall" beams with string down from the purlins).

(Ian. Your Brittany Gites web site descriptions of plasterboarding are very useful. I have finished of the tape and joint for a room the previous owner had plasterboarded and at times wondered if I was doing things correctly. From you description I was - it is just hard work, messy and takes time. However, I was very impressed with the finish you can get and see no need to skim).

Ian

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  • 4 months later...
Hi All,

I have read every post I could find about the merits (or otherwise) of steel frames versus wood for stud walls. Rigidity seems to be the main issue, so I still cant make up my mind which to use. My main query is regarding screwing the plasterboard to steel frames, do you have to pilot drill the steel? Has anyone tried adhesive to fix the boards, if so, does it work and does it last?

Are door casings from places such as Bricomarche rebated to fit the steel frame +2 x plasterboard thickness's (13mm each board)?

Hope someone can answer my (pretty basic) questions.

regards

Steve
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My son is a builder & has used both. He is in the process of "doing" our attic & is using wood as the completed work will be much more solid etc , although slightly more expensive initially we feel well worth it. But everyone has their preferences. We have bought plasterboard in a few places at the moment Brico L'clerc is the best value. (never realised how much you get through) & still we need more
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[quote]Hi All,I have read every post I could find about the merits (or otherwise) of steel frames versus wood for stud walls. Rigidity seems to be the main issue, so I still cant make up my mind which to use...[/quote]

I think you will be surprised how rigid the metal stuff is once it is all in place with the plasterboard fixed.  It seems very flimsy as individual pieces but in the end it is all very firm and I doubt if anyone could tell whether you had used wood or metal when it is all done. Never tried adhesive but self tappers are pretty easy to fix, we do put in a tiny pilot hole.  Door frames will fit round the uprights + board.  It is all so simple even a woman can do it

Liz (29)

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I have some experience of using the steel and plasterboard and have a couple of comments.

The most important is to spend time erecting the steels to ensure everything is square and vertical.

The other point is about drilling. Although the correct screws are self tapping. I found that it was easier to pilot drill, using a good quality sharp bit, of a size that will allow the screws to do a bit of self tapping. Its much easier to control the fitting of the screws like this. I am sure experienced users or professionals will find this too tedious. But it worked for me.

I do have a question.

The instructions I read seemed to indicate an expansion gap allowance of 2.5 centimeters. It seemed a lot given the height of the steels of around 2.6 meters. Does anyone know what the correct amount should be.

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[quote]Unless you've got a big truck I would order it from the builder merchants and get them to deliver it. Put the whole order together, metal stud, plasterboard, rockwool, screws, joint tape, joint fille...[/quote]

Can you, or anyone, tell me the what the product is called to fill plasterboard holes for mounting curtain rods and filling old holes?

Would be much appreciated - Thanks

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Fixing plasterboard onto metal rails - use 25mm screws and a powered screwdriver with a magnetic bit holder (alternatively buy a Bosch slipchuck which will allow you to screw the screws in without going too far) - you just can't do this with a hand screwdriver.

If you buy a large box of Placo screws, the boxes normally contains a screwdriver bit for screwing them in. No pilot hole required.
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[quote]I have some experience of using the steel and plasterboard and have a couple of comments. The most important is to spend time erecting the steels to ensure everything is square and vertical. The oth...[/quote]

2.5cm = 25mm across 2.5(say)m = 2500mm

That's 1 in 100 expansion rate, which seems reasonable.

Though I must admit I've never bothered. I cut the verticals a little loose (more by accident than design usually) and have never had any problem.

p
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"The other point is about drilling. Although the correct screws are self tapping. I found that it was easier to pilot drill, using a good quality sharp bit, of a size that will allow the screws to do a bit of self tapping. Its much easier to control the fitting of the screws like this. I am sure experienced users or professionals will find this too tedious. But it worked for me."

If you have to do a lot of plasterboarding onto metal rail, pre-drilling seems like hard work unless I am misunderstanding what you are doing.

Makita make a specialised main-powered screwdriver (6824) with the power and clutch system to punch the screw through the board and into the rail. An adjustable collar allows you to set the depth of set without punching through the board.

Not to be confused with the adjustable plasterboard driver bits available in the bricos which are fine for fixing to wood.

I bought my Makita on promo from Point P for around 160 Euros - MPO Outillage (www.mpo-outillage.fr have them for 182 Euros TTC).

For serious power tools generally, MPO are very good - reasonable prices - order on-line and delivery in a couple of days.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux
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  • 1 month later...

For what its worth and knowing that for some this debate is over -

I WILL NEVER EVER USE THE METAL FRAMING AGAIN - EVER EVER.

I do a reasonable amount of framing and have found the following

  • Rail et Montant can never be as solid as a chevron based wall
  • Rail et Montant will cut most peoples hands to pieces
  • 35 mm screws are better than 25 mm (IMHO)
  • Rail et Montant is a very dangerous material for one obvious reason - its metal

I used it on one job and was wiring the rooms with 3 core pre sheathed 2.5mm cable protected also by conduit. I had to take the cable/conduit over a door frame. As the material is pre cut for trunking this shouldnt have posed any threat at all. Later that week I was doing some plumbing in the shower room. As I inserted the piece of pipe into the joint I had just soldered it touched the framed wall (without plasterboard). I landed approx 8 feet from the place I had been kneeling. Despite the cable being in its own sheath and inside the conduit it transpires that the pre trunked hole above the door had managed to pierce all the covers and expose the live cable making the entire frame LIVE. Therefore, when I touched the frame with the pipe I created a circuit and I was part of it.

I know some may say I wasnt too careful - wrong - I was, am and will always be. You can never be too careful. So - I will never use it again. I was lucky - some one one day may not be.

Just a cautionary tale.

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hi

           i can only agree with the last post ...them cheap tinny metal frames yuk... they are made for pro`s to put up walls as quick and as cheap as pos.

    if you are diy-ing it use chevrons @ 400 centers ... 75mmx 63mm you can lay them off the wall a bit and stick 100mm isolation in ... cost here for chevrons is about €1 a mtr .

       doing it now

                dave

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"For what its worth and knowing that for some this debate is over -

I WILL NEVER EVER USE THE METAL FRAMING AGAIN - EVER EVER.

I do a reasonable amount of framing and have found the following

    * Rail et Montant can never be as solid as a chevron based wall

    * Rail et Montant will cut most peoples hands to pieces

    * 35 mm screws are better than 25 mm (IMHO)

    * Rail et Montant is a very dangerous material for one obvious reason - its metal

I used it on one job and was wiring the rooms with 3 core pre sheathed

2.5mm cable protected also by conduit. I had to take the cable/conduit

over a door frame. As the material is pre cut for trunking this

shouldnt have posed any threat at all. Later that week I was doing some

plumbing in the shower room. As I inserted the piece of pipe into the

joint I had just soldered it touched the framed wall (without

plasterboard). I landed approx 8 feet from the place I had been

kneeling. Despite the cable being in its own sheath and inside the

conduit it transpires that the pre trunked hole above the door had

managed to pierce all the covers and expose the live cable making the

entire frame LIVE. Therefore, when I touched the frame with the pipe I

created a circuit and I was part of it.

I know some may say I wasnt too careful - wrong - I was, am and will

always be. You can never be too careful. So - I will never use it

again. I was lucky - some one one day may not be.

Just a cautionary tale."

What point are you trying to make?

You have obviously had a bad experience with metal framing but given

that it is the norm for plasterboard framing in France for schools,

hospitals, public buildings, etc, etc, etc, then maybe you have got

something wrong.

To take your comments:

‘Rail et Montant can never be as solid as a chevron based wall’

What do you base this on - if the metal framing is built according to

the manufacturers spec then it will be as strong if not stronger than

timber as a complete structure.

‘Rail et Montant will cut most peoples hands to pieces’

Rubbish - I have used the metal system

 for the last seven years in France and have received a few minor

nicks but no more than I would have received splinters from wood.

‘35 mm screws are better than 25 mm (IMHO)’

Why?

‘Rail et Montant is a very dangerous material for one obvious reason - its metal’

Perhaps get a registered electrician in to do your wiring. There is no

way that metal framing will cut through gaine and then insulation

unless pulled very hard over a pre-drilled hole.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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[quote user="LePaul"]

For what its worth and knowing that for some this debate is over -

I WILL NEVER EVER USE THE METAL FRAMING AGAIN - EVER EVER.

I do a reasonable amount of framing and have found the following

  • Rail et Montant can never be as solid as a chevron based wall
  • Rail et Montant will cut most peoples hands to pieces
  • 35 mm screws are better than 25 mm (IMHO)
  • Rail et Montant is a very dangerous material for one obvious reason - its metal
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I must come to the defence of Placostil....

I have built plenty of wood & Placo walls and;

If done properly, Placostil is just as rigid as wood - often more so, if the joints are done well.

I have never cut myself on Placostil - having checked my invoices, I have bought/installed over a Km of it.

35mm drywall screws are for screwing into wood. 25mm screws are for steel. If you use the long screws, you run the risk of damaging cables in the wall .. sound familiar?

As for the mains problem you suffered, 2 points spring to mind; a) running a cable over a door in a stud wall (of any type) is not permitted. That apart, b) I reckon that you must have yanked very hard on the cable to cut through gaine (which you must have used, to comply with regs) and 2 other layers of insulation! Placostil is designed to carry cables in gaine. Are you sure you did not put one of your long screws into the cable?

I, for my part, will never go back to building walls with wood.

Edit - Bob, you must be psychotic! In the 7 minutes it took me to compose/post this reply, you said the same thing. You see, I do have original thoughts... Honest.

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"hi

           i can only

agree with the last post ...them cheap tinny metal frames yuk... they

are made for pro`s to put up walls as quick and as cheap as pos.

    if you are diy-ing it use chevrons @ 400 centers ...

75mmx 63mm you can lay them off the wall a bit and stick 100mm

isolation in ... cost here for chevrons is about €1 a mtr .

       doing it now

                dave

http://www.lepoirie.com/"

Good advice as ever.

Perhaps the reason that professionals use them is that they are the norm in France.

Also avoids all those call-backs when the wood has warped and the screws and joints have popped.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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LePaul - if you are anywhere near the Charente come and look at our walls in converted grenier. I don't think you'll find any wooden stud walls more rigid. What were you doing wrong and why did you cut yourself to pieces? Did you have the correct tools for the job?

zeb's OH
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