Rough idea of prices before we put in an offer!

[Babbles]

Hi

Before we put in an offer on a house thats at the top end of our budget I could do with some help with some renovation costs

:- a roof which is dry with reasonable quality tiles which covers a floor area of about 120sq m , to have it removed have the beams treated new under-tiles (sous- tuiles) and the orginal ones replacing,  thre are no fancy dorma windows just a really plain roof.

:- 120sq m loft floor boards replaced and the beams treated ( any decent ones will be used to restore other parts of the house)

:- 12 openable windows roughly 800mm x 500 double glazed wood single pane, fitted

The rest of the work can wait but thse costs need to be taken into account with the offer.

The house is in the 47 32 borders if that makes a differnce!!!!

All advice greatly recieved, hubby asking questions I haven't got answers to!

[Lou]

Hi

I work for an estate agent in SW France and our standard (and very much

an average or "guesstimate") response is to this question from clients

is to allow 1,000 euros per sqm for a renovation project - obviously

this may vary hugely depending on the actual state of the house and

what you plan to do with it!

It sounds really like you need to get a builder in for a proper devis

before you go any further - you may even be able to use this to your

advantage when negiotiating on the price

Lou

[Blanche Neige]

It sounds really like you need to get a builder in for a proper devis before you go any further - you may even be able to use this to your advantage when negiotiating on the price

 

Very sound advice from Lou, a good builder will be able to give you a realistic idea.

 

Good Luck

[Tresco]

Abs, when you say the house is at the top end of your budget, do you mean your total budget?  If you do, you will be going over it a great deal. [:(]

Also when you say 'single pane' for the windows do you mean single glazed, or 'modern' windows without multiple panes/glazing bars? (I hope that's the right terminology).

You may have to pay for the devis, but it would be worth it.

We found people very reluctant to come out (drive for 15k etc). and do one until the house was bought, so we paid for 2.

 

[andyh4]

Based on our experience Lou's verry rough estimate of 1000€/m² looks about right, although even if you do get devis, remember that the first rule of conversions and renovations in France is that the 25% contingency is never going to be enough.

Good luck

 

[Mulsanne]

I would get a devis from a roofer as this is going to be the major cost. They may be reluctant to re use the tiles and the price will depend a lot on whether the roof is straight.I think the price of Euros 1000 per  m2 is for a total ground up restoration which you are obviously not looking at. A friend of mine paid Euro 11000 for a new roof with new tiles on a building which was 8m x 5m.

[Babbles]

Thanks everyone for the advice, a bit more info for you

The price is top of our purchase price and we do have a renovation budget as well but the work we need a rough quote for is to make it habitable, the other work we can make a reasonable guesstimate at from other projects we've done and some of that work we can do ourselves but neither me or my hubby are good with heights!!!!!

The windows we need a quote for are the attic ones ( the space was once habitable servants quarters or something like its not a loft to convert) so they won't have any glazing bars but we would want them to be openable and double glazed.

Getting a builder to quote before we go back for a second viewing is going to be a challange as I'm now back in the UK and I'm only wanting a rough idea if anybody has any experience of similar work just what they've paid.

Waiting egerly for more advice!

[Babbles]

Hi Mulsanne

Thats really useful to know, was that for the beams  and purlins ( I think thats what theyre called) as well as new tiles and insulation?

The roof is in reasonable condition and watertight, its really so we can use the attic space and have it insulated, we really would want to reuse the tiles and have seen property with this done (no doubt they will want to charge more for that as it will take longer to strip the roof carefully) I also think the Marie would want us to do that as its in an historic village.

[Gluestick]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but with all respect, what you are trying to do sounds very dangerous and fraught with self-made traps.

As a rule of thumb, you could (and should) obtain a Brico Depot catalogue and a Leroy Merlin catalogue, too.

These can provide a baseline for material cost data. Labour costs will, quite frankly, depend on where you are thinking of buying, as if the area has lost of incomers, then do tend to create a sort of seller's market and prices rise: sometimes, quite steeply, as all local builders believe that Les Anglaises are millionaires!

Despite popular anecdotal lore, French builders are as hard working as any: apart from their habit of not appearing on time! Thus it is possible to use the probable workload to calculate the potential labour costs. Don't forget to add on 10% for sundries and 5% TVA (VAT) as if it is a renovation project you should still have this advantage.

Most areas in France here a large number of incomers buy, tend to have a French project Manager type person: they are really mainly Building Contractors, who undertake work and then sub it out to local artisans. Try and find one of these and ask for an estimate in principle: this should provide a rogh project cost.

Ideally, you should aim to base yourself locally to your desired property for two weeks, in order to see the whole process through. Not to do this is very dangerous!

Personally, I would take your time on this one and if it sells, find another. To proceed in absence of all significant information and costs would be like buying a car, by telephone without driving it! Would you do this? I most certainly wouldn't.

As has already been said, in the final event, the actual project cost will outstrip any estimates you have, by at least 25% - if you are lucky!

As a rule of thumb, if you double the total cost of buying ( cost + Notaires fees etc), then you will be somewhere near reality: then add 25% for safety! Have you had the property surveyed? I would, from what you say. Don't forget, that you can sign a Compromis de Vente (Draft Contract) and insist that this has a Clause Suspensive ( provisional clause) which says something like subject to satisfactory survey results: you can define "Satisfactory".

Sorry to sound so negative: wouldn't want you to join the legion of sad would be buyers who retire some time later with a big hole in their wallet and a bad experience.

 

[Babbles]

Hi Gluestick

No disrespect but we have quite a vast experience of renovation projects from houses to business in the UK , and contary to popular belief we do know what we are doing , its just that French roofs are constructed differently and I have no expereince of there costs.

 I am asking a specific questions before we make an offer, it is not a full renovation project as many aspects are already in place and naturally we will be there to see the process through. I am trying to gleen a little information before we go and make sure its the right thing to do. I also know for a fact that these jobs we cannot do ourselves no matter what happens hence wanting to find a rough guesstimate before we go because as you say some people think Les Anglaise have deep pockets and I don't want to be taken for a fool!!!

Any information gained now surely can only help me make a judgement of wether a quote is accurate or a rip off but its not the only information I'm going to use.

Thanks for the reply

PS We're a long way off retiring!

[andyh4]

To give a further example of costs - 11 x 6 barn.  Complete reroof - new purlins, beams, etc plus new tiles - 10.5k€.  We asked about reusing the tiles and the answer was that some (about 40% judging by what was in the rubble heap) were porous and could not be used again; and it would be more expensive to remove the tiles one by one, inspect and sort, source "new" matching ones for the failures etc., than to strip the lot and start afresh. 

 

Selecting a tile with a mottled finish means the roof does not stick out as "shiney new".

[Gluestick]

No problems for you, then. You can discover the materials costs quite easily. Ask around locally for day costs for roofers. Simple.

French roofs in fact are not so very different! Different to modern UK thin framed houses with trusses coming off a CAM system at Magnet & Sothern, perhaps, but the vast majority of lofts I've been in in france, are extremely similar to old British buildings. Simple A frames made from oak and elm.

Interestingly, I have my late father-in-laws reference books (a master carpenter and builder) from the 1930s and the roof types are almost identical, particularly mansard type.

Sorry. In the light of this new information, I can't see where your problems arise?[8-)]

[zeb]

Abs - enquire at your Mairie or neighbours about local recommended roofers. Roofing work is done around the communes all the time and everyone knows who is best. If it's a reputable company their charges will be the same whatever your nationality.

We have a couple of very good French roofing firms here who wouldn't risk their reputations by overcharging Brits.

Also, it's sensible to get three devis, but don't expect any work to be done for 12 months. Good firms have a waiting list.

[sharkhunter]

Not too sure of your statement that all good firms have a waiting list. I do not have a waiting list anywhere near 1 year long, who wants to wait that long?? I have got recommendations from previous clients who will happily sing my/our praises, basically a good company, without a waiting list.And yes we do have the odd period where we do not have a continuous workload, but i do deserve a life as well. I work to live not live to work. No malice intended, Hugh.

[Gluestick]

Hmmm The collective experience in the Nord pas de Calais area, (which has seen a very high level of Brit buyers for holiday homes, commuting and residence),  has been that the sheer volume of work has made the supply of artisans short. And prices have apparently risen accordingly.

There do seem to be two prices for both properties and building work: and a high level of both French and Brit cowboys, it seems. The first has been egged on by agents (quelle surprise!) and the second by Supply:Demand and natural greed, I suppose. One has to very careful. Even apparently reputable builders in this area seem to have driven their own prices upwards.

It has taken considerable time and research and the kind input of French locals to source the good guys!

Just shows, to me, how being patient has its own reward.

 

[Babbles]

Thanks for the additional info, and when you think about it the trusses and beams do look the same as a UK type roof from the similar period (18c) I think I've been a thrown by these sous-tuiles as I've not seen them being put on in practice and didn't know how that effects the price, more commonly we've worked on property with slates (being up North!) with felt etc

I think as we are at an early stage of the process, if we decide to progress with this property and once we've got some ball park figures we can then research in depth to find the right artisan for the job.

I do think its a good idea to ask at the Marie, but at this stage they might not neccessarily have our interest at heart as the commune own the building!!!!!!

[Babbles]

Thanks this gives me something to work with.

Are the new old looking tiles a)more expensive(I bet they are!) b)a convincing repro

The house isn't the highest in the village so I wouldn't want to offend anyone who had to look at them!!

[hastobe]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Don't forget, that you can sign a Compromis de Vente (Draft Contract) and insist that this has a Clause Suspensive ( provisional clause) which says something like subject to satisfactory survey results: you can define "Satisfactory".

[/quote]

We asked if we could have a condition precedent in the compromis to

protect us in the case of an adverse survey report and we were told by

the notaire's that this wasn't permitted.  We could have one for

obtaining satisfactory planning permission etc, failure to get a

mortgage - but not an unsatisfactory survey.  The survey, in fact,

turned out to be pretty dire (property had slippage) but fortunately we

managed to get the survey report done before we signed the compromis -

so we were able to withdraw from the purchase.

Hastobe

[Mulsanne]

Abs,

the Euro11,000 was for retiling with some woodwork repairs but overall the roof was pretty straight. No insulation, simple tiled roof with new tiles and zinc guttering and downpipes.

Good luck

[hastobe]

[quote user="Abs Turner"]

Are the new old looking tiles a)more expensive(I bet they are!) b)a convincing repro

[/quote]

Best thing to do is to salvage the good tiles - and then mix them

randomly with as near a match as you can find in replacement tiles -

but paint the replacement tiles with a milk / yoghurt mixture so they

will weather really quickly and blend with the old ones.

Hastobe

[Gluestick]

It seems as if this was the seller's wish, Hastobe.

In theory you can ask for virtually any conditional clause: whether the seller will accept it is another matter.

All the authorities are in accord: ask for a Clause Suspensive in the Compromis de Vente.