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Siret number = insured??


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We are currently having a dispute with our maitre d'oevre who has increased the price of our renovation by 50% after we have signed a devis and a marche de travaux. He has a siret number but as yet has not produced his insurance documentation after we have asked many times. Is it a requirement if he is registered and if he hasn't got insurance what are the legal implications for him as we are probably about to sue him? Any help/knowledge would be gratefully received.
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Every single artisan in the building trades here if he trades as a business MUST provide adequate insurance Deçennale and Civile. Having a SIRET number means nothing at all where insurances are concerned, they are taken out at the discretion of the individual after he completes his preliminary Chambre de Metiers stage to be an artisan. If this chap has no insurance do not use him,you will end up the losers with no leg to stand on. You could make a complaint to the gendarmerie that he will not supply insurance details as they do check this paperwork when called out to "illegal workers" as we found out even though we were all above board and covered.
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Val's advice is spot on as I know to my cost.

Six months ago I had a devis from someone who was supposed to project manage my job. After numerous delays the job was supposed to start last week. It has never been made clear to me exactly who was doing the job so I asked for the insurance details as well as the names of 'teams' who would be on site. After a week, this was not supplied so I have instructed them that they should not be on site unless I have this information. I can only presume that since they have not sent it, they are not insured and I am not prepared to take the risk.

I am now taking legal steps to recover my full deposit (40% of the job, paid in April).

I would be keen to have a conversation off line about this: would you like to PM me?

Have you considered a report to the gendarmerie too?

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Fully agree with Val.  The decennelle insurance costs a lot of money but , to be legal, is compulsory. Also the more "skills" you have on your insurance ( ie roofing, carpentry, stonework & even decorating !), the higher the premium, which tempts some artisans to do certain tasks although they are not insured. If your contractor is reluctant to prove his insurance, try doing as Val says.

Why is he increasing your costs by 50% ? When I took the course we were told that a devis is a legal contract , signed by both parties, & , basically, if you forgot to price for some of the work you agreed on the devis, tough, you had to do it. If it is additional work encountered, has he a clause for this ? It may be worth while going to your local chambre de metiers , show them the devis , &  ask their advice.

Good Luck.

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My understanding is that a 'devis' is a quotation it is not an estimate and that issuing by one party and signiture by the other produces a legally binding contract. If for instance the devis said << removal of 90 cm think wall at 100 euros a sq metre and thereafter pro rata >> if the wall turned out to be 135 cm thick I can understand the price going up by 50 % but otherwise not.

If I were ordering something which was useless for anything except the job in hand ( gold and pink painted worksurfaces)  I could undertand a 40 % deposit. I can understand being asked for proof I had enough money in the bank to pay for the job but 40% prior to work starting NO WAY.

 

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As a registered business,(RCS) not registered with the Chambre de Metiers as not an artisan, we do however have full appropairate insurance cover.  If requested by the client it is always available, and indeed a copy of our cover appears on our website, downloadable. 

I fully agree with the comments from Val, any concerns, then you must investigate cover fully before employing services.

Moreover, the laws in france are very differnent to those of the Uk.  It is worth having the knowledge of the way and process on France if you have any disputes or concerns.

 

 

 

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He has increased our costs as he has vastly underquoted for the job!! Bizzarely he had visited the property many times before providing the Devis but obviously got it very very wrong. We have the insurance for all of the artisans on site but not his as he was the project manager. Essentially as he is not working on the house the bank who provided us with the funds for the renovation did not ask/require it. The kind bank in question has of course added that if we want more money all we have to do is ask - if only we didn't have to pay it back!!

Thanks for all the help so far.
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Have sent you a PM Liz. But we have a list of all the artisans who were working on the project prior to it starting. Luckily in a way because we borrowed some money for the renovation the bank made sure that we had all the necessary paperwork (apart from his insurance) before they released the funds. But it's his signature on all the devis pages and the contract and the marche de travaux. Incidentally when the paperwork goes to court probably next week we are also demanding that he pays the 100 euros per day for finishing late. I only hope we get somewhere.
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"As a registered business,(RCS) not registered with the Chambre de Metiers as not an artisan, we do however have full appropairate insurance cover.  If requested by the client it is always available, and indeed a copy of our cover appears on our website, downloadable. "

An interesting website - I am probably stupid but could not find the insurance details anywhere on the site - nor any details re your Siret/TVA numbers.

You are offering a huge range of services using third parties across your region - are you providing insurance for them?

Tom Baker 

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[quote]As a registered business,(RCS) not registered with the Chambre de Metiers as not an artisan, we do however have full appropairate insurance cover. If requested by the client it is always available, a...[/quote]

Hello

I'd be fascinated to know how you do this lot;

> a comprehensive property management service

> maintenance and handyman services

> project management of renovation or new builds

> finding a new permanent residence or that dream second home

> locating the perfect holiday home or long term rental property

without registration with the Ch de M (or the Ch de Commerce) and without, it would appear, a SIRET number.

 

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"Hello

I'd be fascinated to know how you do this lot;

> a comprehensive property management service

> maintenance and handyman services

> project management of renovation or new builds

> finding a new permanent residence or that dream second home

> locating the perfect holiday home or long term rental property

without registration with the Ch de M (or the Ch de Commerce) and without, it would appear, a SIRET number."

Nick,

This is just one of many 'companies' that offer an impossible range of services without seeming to have any details re Siret No/TVA No on their website.

They may well be fully registered - in which case, why not put the details on their site?

If you look at the site, which to be fair is very professional, it simply offers all the work that most newcomers to France offer - gardening, property management, property search - although at 525 Euros for five properties, hardly a bargain.

The problem for all of these companies, registered or not, is that they seem to think that they have discovered the 'magic formula' for business here and which has not been tried before - see if they are still around in a few years time.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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http://www.greenacresworldwide.com/terms.htm

here you will find our terms, Siret number ane insurance details, as they have been since our inception in January 2004.

Certainly not here today gone tomorrow and with over 50 clients on the books this year, plenty of recommendation for new clients to work from.

I hope this clear things up for those who cannot locate the relevant info.

Stuart TILLEY

Greenacres Worldwide

 

 

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 "http://www.greenacresworldwide.com/terms.htm

here you will find our terms, Siret number ane insurance details, as they have been since our inception in January 2004.

Certainly not here today gone tomorrow and with over 50 clients on the books this year, plenty of recommendation for new clients to work from.

I hope this clear things up for those who cannot locate the relevant info.

Stuart TILLEY

Greenacres Worldwide"

Thanks for that reply,

Your Siret number listing is a bit odd - in 47 this literally means a 'home help' i.e. somebody who helps the elderly in their home.

The link to your insurance details does not seem to work and I could not see any ref to your TVA number.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr.perso/grindoux

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

[quote]Every single artisan in the building trades here if he trades as a business MUST provide adequate insurance Deçennale and Civile. Having a SIRET number means nothing at all where insurances are concer...[/quote]

Hi Val2

can you substantiate this please above and beyond being asked for your AD on one occasion by a gendarme?

same question but still waiting for an answer for anyone who this might concern.

same question and still waiting for an answer

Orion

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I always thought that French estate agency etc was  highly regulated  with its own peculiar registration requirements. I seem to remember a well publicised case of some Brits in Provence who were banged up for illegal trading.

So it would be interesting to know how such activity fits in with a home help care.

http://siren451084677.societes.org/

http://recherche-naf.insee.fr/SIRENET_ClassesNaf/853J.htm

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  • 3 months later...
[quote user="Greenacres"]

http://www.greenacresworldwide.com/terms.htm

here you will find our terms, Siret number ane insurance details, as they have been since our inception in January 2004.

Certainly not here today gone tomorrow and with over 50 clients on the books this year, plenty of recommendation for new clients to work from.

I hope this clear things up for those who cannot locate the relevant info.

Stuart TILLEY

Greenacres Worldwide

 

 

[/quote]

 

INTERESTING!  - ENTREPRISE RADIEE 31/12/3005

 

Does this mean they've been struck off ?  If so, why are they still using the siret number on their website?  No insurance link whatsoever now!  Best of luck to the 50 customers on their books! 

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[quote user="redhat"][quote user="Greenacres"]

http://www.greenacresworldwide.com/terms.htm

here you will find our terms, Siret number ane insurance details, as they have been since our inception in January 2004.

Certainly not here today gone tomorrow and with over 50 clients on the books this year, plenty of recommendation for new clients to work from.

I hope this clear things up for those who cannot locate the relevant info.

Stuart TILLEY

Greenacres Worldwide

 

 

[/quote]

 

INTERESTING!  - ENTREPRISE RADIEE 31/12/3005

 

Does this mean they've been struck off ?  If so, why are they still using the siret number on their website?  No insurance link whatsoever now!  Best of luck to the 50 customers on their books! 

[/quote]

Moderators Hat ON

I have been asked to check this information by a justly concerned forum member. I have checked the SIRET number given on the above website using http://www.infobilan.fr/ which many of our members have used in the past to verify SIRET and RCS numbers and I can find nothing to indicate there is a problem with this company.

If somebody knows differently and can provide a direct source of reference preferably a website where we can see the information for ourselves please inform us via PM or using the 'Report' button.

UNDER THE 'NAMING AND SHAMING' RULE IN OUR CODE OF CONDUCT YOU SHOULD NOT PUT YOUR COMMENT HERE.

The reason I have not dealt with this privately is that there are to many comments to deal with and I don’t have much time but I want to nip this in the bud before it gets out of control.

Regardless of whether a company shows it’s insurance number and TVA number on it’s publicity or not and as I have been reminded in the past it is for the client to ensure they see all the relevant documents before employing any company, artisan or whoever. Many companies in both France and the UK do not give details of their TVA/VAT and insurance on their publicity, it is not obligatory (although some may say more the pity).

If anyone wish’s to discuss this further with me then please do so via a PM and NOT in open forum.

Moderators Hat OFF

 

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[quote user="Orion"]

[quote]Every single artisan in the building trades here if he trades as a business MUST provide adequate insurance Deçennale and Civile. Having a SIRET number means nothing at all where insurances are concer...[/quote]

Hi Val2

can you substantiate this please above and beyond being asked for your AD on one occasion by a gendarme?

same question but still waiting for an answer for anyone who this might concern.

same question and still waiting for an answer

Orion

[/quote]

Val 2 is perfectly correct. It doesn't need to be sustantiated, it is simply the law in France.

With regard to french Novice's original post - if your maitre d'oeuvre is doing just that i.e. working as a project manager with no hands on input on site, then he should have asked all the Artisans to quote directly to you after he had agreed with you what percentage of the job price he would take for his management services. If he has given you a quote off his own back (which you signed) and then found the Artisans couldn't do it for the price he thought then that is his hard luck but also he then really working as a general builder and needs to be insured for all the trades he offers. I'm not sure what the insurance requirements are for a Md'O.

These companies offering a wide range of services that they think everyone needs are in the 'main here today, gone tomorrow'. The main problem with offering a sub-contract management service is finding reliable sub-contractors, who are legal and charge low enough to allow the management service to take a cut. In my view, it is the clients of these companies who are the mugs - they are expecting a one stop, English speaking solution to all their problems - how naive can you get?

 

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Clients should indeed be made aware of the issues surrounding correct insurance.  As a general building company we are registered for all trades, as our siret and ape code confirm.  We are also insured for all trades, and it does indeed cost an arm and a leg to cover everything.

I know of many other registered artisans in our area, who are not correctly registered and are totally uninsured.  Not only is this a risk for the client if there is faulty workmanship, but there will be no 10yr guarantee on the works either.  It costs nothing to ask to see someones insurance certificate and double check their registration on a site such as www.infobilan.com

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"redhat wrote:

         Greenacres wrote:

        http://www.greenacresworldwide.com/terms.htm

        here you will find our

terms, Siret number ane insurance details, as they have been since our

inception in January 2004.

        Certainly not here today

gone tomorrow and with over 50 clients on the books this year, plenty

of recommendation for new clients to work from.

        I hope this clear things up for those who cannot locate the relevant info.

        Stuart TILLEY

        Greenacres Worldwide

       

    INTERESTING!  - ENTREPRISE RADIEE 31/12/3005

    

    Does this mean they've been struck off ?  If

so, why are they still using the siret number on their website? 

No insurance link whatsoever now!  Best of luck to the 50

customers on their books!

Moderators Hat ON

I have been asked to check this information by a justly concerned forum

member. I have checked the SIRET number given on the above website

using http://www.infobilan.fr/ which many of our members have used in

the past to verify SIRET and RCS numbers and I can find nothing to

indicate there is a problem with this company.

If somebody knows differently and can provide a direct source of

reference preferably a website where we can see the information for

ourselves please inform us via PM or using the 'Report' button.

UNDER THE 'NAMING AND SHAMING' RULE IN OUR CODE OF CONDUCT YOU SHOULD NOT PUT YOUR COMMENT HERE.

The reason I have not dealt with this privately is that there are to

many comments to deal with and I don’t have much time but I want to nip

this in the bud before it gets out of control.

Regardless of whether a company shows it’s insurance number and TVA

number on it’s publicity or not and as I have been reminded in the past

it is for the client to ensure they see all the relevant documents

before employing any company, artisan or whoever. Many companies in

both France and the UK do not give details of their TVA/VAT and

insurance on their publicity, it is not obligatory (although some may

say more the pity).

If anyone wish’s to discuss this further with me then please do so via a PM and NOT in open forum.

Moderators Hat OFF

 

www.chambresdhote.com"

Perhaps try a search on www.infogreffe.fr and refine the search to include ‘société radieé’.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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I did as you said and got the following.:

Rappel de vos critères de sélection :
Numéro d'identification (RCS) : 451 084 677
Immatriculations : Principale
Entreprises radiées du RCS : Non

I read this to be an active company, am I wrong?

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"I did as you said and got the following.:

Rappel de vos critères de sélection :

Numéro d'identification (RCS) : 451 084 677

Immatriculations : Principale

Entreprises radiées du RCS : Non

I read this to be an active company, am I wrong?

www.chambresdhote.com"

This comes up if you run the search from the main Infogreffe screen.

Below this text it comments that no company could be found to match the number entered.

On the Infogreffe main screen, you need to click on ‘Plus de critères’,

check the  ‘aux enterprises radiées’ box and then run the search.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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(in moderator mode - not that it makes any difference)

The free search sites only give the most basic of information, and in our experience it is not often particularly accurate or informative. Unless somebody does a full (paid for) search this could all be pretty meaningless and/or malicious. Anyway, there are many reasons why an enterprise may be deregistered, not all of them resulting from any wrongdoing by any means.

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