Artisan Won't Do The Work or Refund the Money

[ProMan]

I signed off two devis with company in France in January, and another recently. On all three I paid a 30% deposit for the work, totalling 10,000 euros. Since then this company (electrician and plumbing company) has done some other work totalling 60,000 for which they've been paid.

I've now asked them to complete the other work for which they have these 30% deposits, but it seems they think they can not only hold onto my money and do the job whenever suits them, but they even believe that they can charge me the rest of the value of those devis (another 20k) without having to actually do the work.

I know French laws are essentially designed to let French companies sit on their backsides for most of the year (when it's not August holiday it's generally a bank holiday), but surely there is some way to make time 'of the essence' and demand that they do the work at a time that suits me or refund my money ? Otherwise I'll set up my own company and spend 5 years collecting 30% deposits without doing any work.

The worst thing is I can't get anyone else to do the work because these people are contracted to do it, and it's holding up completion of my work by Christmas.

[ProMan]

I signed off two devis with company in France in January, and another recently. On all three I paid a 30% deposit for the work, totalling 10,000 euros. Since then this company (electrician and plumbing company) has done some other work totalling 60,000 for which they've been paid.

I've now asked them to complete the other work for which they have these 30% deposits, but it seems they think they can not only hold onto my money and do the job whenever suits them, but they even believe that they can charge me the rest of the value of those devis (another 20k) without having to actually do the work.

I know French laws are essentially designed to let French companies sit on their backsides for most of the year (when it's not August holiday it's generally a bank holiday), but surely there is some way to make time 'of the essence' and demand that they do the work at a time that suits me or refund my money ? Otherwise I'll set up my own company and spend 5 years collecting 30% deposits without doing any work.

The worst thing is I can't get anyone else to do the work because these people are contracted to do it, and it's holding up completion of my work by Christmas.

[Val_2]

I can understand your frustration ProMan but please calm down and let "nature take it's course".This is France where the work attitude is very different to the "wanting it done yesterday attitude" in the UK and if you upset your artisans they will only take longer to do your job out of spite. NO french artisan likes a client on his back demanding he get on and get the work done immediately and you won't find anyone else to take you on if you upset them,certainly not in your area as artisans have a very good grapevine and bad clients are talked about everywhere. You have a lot of consumer protection on your side albeit,very slow if the money paid up front dosn't materialise into completed works. August is not a good time to demand anyone to work here,it is THE holiday of the year and builders have worked hard all year to take that time off for which their boss has paid for all year as well in charges. I think you will find that things will return to normal in September and the work will continue.

[Frederick]

 

"Let nature take its course ....this is France "      I am now  so glad I got  an  English guy  living in France to do the work on my place Val ....and any more big jobs I need doing   (and I  want a bathroom put in off a bedroom  for next year) ..  I shall be going back to him . as it will be done when I want it done .When you read of the way that some artisans  treat their clients on forums like this then  can you wonder why new arrivals wont touch them. If they get upset about it.... tough ......who works for who.....  have they not heard that "he who pays the piper calls the tune " When they get a load of artisans from East Europe move into their area of work  as they will one day and they see them doing a  good job for less ....then customer relations may start to mean somthing ...Proman does not deserve to be treated the way he is ..... who do they think they are .

[Val_2]

Frederick, my husband has NOT taken one day of holidays this year because he dosn't want to let his clients down,therefore as a family none of us has had so much as even half a day out. I was trying to put across the attitude here that does exist and yes,we have in the past put certain clients back but a lot of that was to with non-payment of works already long completed and invoiced for and their "I'm better off than you" attitude towards us. Unfortunately too, there is a lot of anti-british feeling in certain regions and this does have an effect on how people get treated.

[Eslier]

Welcome to France ProMan.  I can sympathise with the way you must feel but I am afraid this is just the way of things over here.  Artisans do, however, often seem to manage to operate on a just in time basis so, if you have told them you want to move in by Christmas then there's a good chance they'll turn up on mass around the beginning of December, and get the work about three quaters finished by Christmas. Don't give up hope, the work will be done eventually and the standard that French artisans work to is usually excellent so it will be worth waiting for. The general rule seems to be, however long you expect your renovation to take, it will probably take two to three times longer so if you start looking forward to moving in for Christmas 2007 then anything earlier will be a bonus !   Val is right, don't fall out with your builder but at the same time don't let him think you are happy to sit back and wait. A friendly phone call once or twice a week will ensure that he fits you in as soon as he can and doesn't let too many others who are also chasing him jump the queue in front of you.

Frederick, if you apply British values then you are absolutely right, but this isn't Britain it is France and is a very different place. Over here the artisan, the notaire, the farmer, the doctor and the man who sweeps up at the decheterie are all social equals. If you are the client of the artisan then you are expected to respect him and he will respect you. Jumping up and down, getting angry and telling an artisan that you expect him to jump when you say jump won't get you very far. It isn't easy for people who don't live here to understand this but once you have lived here a few years you start to appreciate this much more relaxed way of life and everything taking its time. It's all part of what makes France the special place that we all enjoy being in, and I very much hope things don't change and become more like Britain.

[Ernie]

Hey, I don't get this Brits-are-better rubbish. We had a highly reputable, respectable Brit builder who had 20,000 sterling up front when he was about two-thirds finished on the job and from that point on, sent unskilled, incompetent Brit workers on to the site who did such things as: attach a gutter so that the rain went off the roof between the roof and the gutter and not into it; fitted a soak away so that the water was supposed to run uphill into the soakaway; slapped paint on the walls so that it sloshed over the new wood ceiling/floor above; fitted windows so that the panes fell out on to the terrace below; plumbed a bathroom so that the sink waste went into the trap at the bottom of the hot-tank, overflowed into the living room; plumbed a kitchen so that the dishwasher and the washing machine can't be run at the same time and there is permanent damp behind and below the kitchen sink; fitted a stove flue upside down so that it poured smoke and condensation into the room; fitted a shutter so that it was plugged into loose mortar and so swung free and was about to fall on the terrace below; buried 'Evrite' sheeting containing asbestos in the back garden, denied it, then said he'd remove it, didn't remove it and an exploratory hole in the garden has revealed it along with heaps of rubble from the works; attached electric rads using insulating tape; did the whole job without insurance; employed people without giving them congé; had to redo a tuiles courbes roof because it was fitted without roofing felt and leaked all over the living room but when you look at the roof now, the 'canals' between the tiles are more wiggly than snakes on a snakes and ladder board and French builders make special trips to our house to come and laugh at it, the floor-tiling was grouted with a grout that turned to powder and when it was redone the tiler shattered the edges of the tiles...shall I go on?

I'm sick and tired of hearing Brits sneering at French builders as if somehow we Brits are superior, better, quicker etc etc. I sit in cafes and hear English blokes bragging about how they dodge the regulations, don't pay tax, aren't skilled at this or that but are 'picking it up on the job' and the like. Forget it. Some Brit builders are good, some are crap. Some French builders are good. Some are crap. When Brit builders are crap in the UK, there's almost nothing you can do about it, unless you insure yourself and the job before it starts - at a cost. When builders are crap in France, at least you've got a system of contracts and insurance that you can go through step by step before building starts and as it goes on, which can defend both builder and client. By the way, don't forget to make your client's insurance cover 'ouvrage and dommage' as well, so that you can deal with 'malfacons', bad workmanship as it goes on. We didn't and that's why we've got the mess we've got.

[Nick Trollope]

I think, I'm afraid to say, that your attitude may have something to do with it; French companies sit on their backsides for most of the year (when it's not August holiday it's generally a bank holiday).

However, they are not allowed to sit on their backsides (chances are they aren't anyway). Did you have a completion date on any of the Devis? If you didn't then you should have, but in the absence of a date, then their timescales must be "reasonable".

Your first action must be a recorded delivery letter giving them 14 days to commit to a completion date. If that does not work call on a Hussier de Justice to write to them for one. His opinion has legal validity.

If all this fails, get someone else to do the job (if you can find one - which of course may be another problem) and sue them for whatever you paid them.

As a general rule, never pay deposits unless you have timescales in writing, or only make staged payments.

 

 

 

[Simon]

I find it a bit odd that companies are allowed to charge in advance in this way, surely it is their problem if they need money to buy materials, that is what the banks are for.

Simon

[andyh4]

Another British attitude that fails to translate well into French.

[Ernie]

Well put, Nick Trollope.

[Frederick]

You make a point Val it must be  about anti British feeling in some areas...This is the sort of thing that is showing  on the many TV shows we seem to get on every channel these days... Brits having places done up in France or where ever.... and showing lots of tears and frustration  and cash spent in the process of dealing with artisans ..... who .....are portrayed as shoulder shruggers and palm raisers .... When  the TV crew  returns to show an open sided barn that was promised to have been  turned into a four bedroom house complete with wood burner going in 9 months ...and askes why its not finished .... up goes the shoulders of the builder and he walks off . 

. My point is these forums   and TV shows are full of stories about an attitude ...one that comes over as  "The Brits are rich...lets take them for what we can get out of them  ...and do it  when we want to do it  "  I know there are lots of rubbish Brit builders in  France  there are lots at home .....but I would have thought  before  you pay out huge sums of money you would want to visit where he has  worked in the past and checked out his work .....Any good builder  would be happy for you to talk to his past clients  .....I am happy with the English  guy I used . and he is local ..we fixed a price we shook on it and he was paid when the  good job he did  was finished ..My local plumber (French ) I am delighted with...  a nice guy ....and he has never let me down so  I have no complaints .......But  when are we going to read about  on these forums and see on TV  stories about   great artisans ...who turn up on time. produce fantastc work and  finish  on  time and who do not come over as  thinking  British house buyers are some cash cow that is just there to be milked .  Untill we do you cant blame some house buying Brits from thinking it will be less grief to take a builder over with them  than hire local ones .  

[Benjamin]

You are NEVER going to read about great artisans.

Those stories don't make good copy or sell trashy TV programs.

Benjamin

[Simon]

[quote user="andyh4"]Another British attitude that fails to translate well into French.[/quote]

Yes pity that, I find most aspects of French life are excellent and for the good of the citizen, this aspect though flies in the face of the that as it allows the the fraudsters a loophole.

Simon

[BJSLIV]

We have never been asked to pay anything in adavance for any of the work we have had done.

I think that one of the reasons that this requirement is creeping in is that some French artisans have had problems getting money from British incomers ( and probably other nationalities as well). This often seems to be related to over ambitious renovation projects when money gets tight as costs escalate out of control.

Hence the more cautious approach being implemented.Its can obviously a particular problem when the purchaser is back in the UK for months on end.

I seem to rember that Val has encountered this problem from fellow Brits.

[Russethouse]

The liklihood is that you will not hear about great artisans on any forum, over the years I have noticed that many peoples first post is when something goes wrong! That means that truly the impression you get from forums is skewed...........

 

[Heath]

[quote user="Frederick"]I am now  so glad I got  an  English guy  living in France to do the work on my place Val ....and any more big jobs I need doing   (and I  want a bathroom put in off a bedroom  for next year) ..  I shall be going back to him . as it will be done when I want it done [/quote]

If your man is able to do your work when you want it done (implication being - immediately) then he is underemployed and as such almost certainly not paying state cotisations which means he is working on the black.

The system forces Artisans to take on a lot of work, there is little scope for the one job followed by another regime especially if the Artisan has a couple of employees as the charges are even more aggressive.

If you accept an estimate you should insist that a start date is part of the contract. If the Artisan fails to meet the start date then you can ask for your deposit back and look elsewhere.

All estimates include the term:

En cas d'acceptation du present devis, veuillez nous le retouner, signe, avec le mention manuscrite "BON POUR EXCECUTION" accompagner par votre accompte

or words to the same effect. You can, of course, add conditions to the contract prior to signing, as long as they are acceptable to both parties, and this may include an agreement to pay the accompte at the start of work (or shortly before) especially if the agreed start date is some time away.

In my experience, French Artisans (as opposed to British Artisans registered to work in France) are much less ameanable towards their clients taking the view that if you want the work done sign here, pay up and I'll turn up when I'm ready, but the root cause of most of the problems between French Artisan and English client is the language. English clients are often much too keen to accept an estimate thinking that is the end of their input and next time they turn up it will all be done. English homeowners who have taken on French Artisans are often reluctant to hassle him because he was recommended by a neighbour and they are concerned about upsetting the neighbour - the Artisan knows this and the client becomes very much last on the list of priorities.

[Val_2]

Oh yes and more than once too. Some people seem genuine when you start,sign the devis and then when the works are completed satisfactorily and you invoice them, the old "I'll have to transfer the money over" thing comes in, thats no good to french artisans who have monthly bills to pay and one customer we had recently only paid what she wanted to pay which caused us to almost quit the job on the spot. We have now had to ask for deposits on special orders for sanitary ware non-standard and all menuiserie as these are non-returnable,other than that,work has to be done to a stage payment before we invoice. There are as many crooked english and other nationalities as customers here which do unerve artisans and we have had a german couple try to do a runner until I got an injunction on their property being sold to pay all the workers off.

[opas]

Val, have sent you a pm.

[Gardian]

[quote user="Ernie"]

Hey, I don't get this Brits-are-better rubbish. We had a highly reputable, respectable Brit builder who had 20,000 sterling up front when he was about two-thirds finished on the job and from that point on, sent unskilled, incompetent Brit workers on to the site who did such things as: attach a gutter so that the rain went off the roof between the roof and the gutter and not into it; fitted a soak away so that the water was supposed to run uphill into the soakaway; slapped paint on the walls so that it sloshed over the new wood ceiling/floor above; fitted windows so that the panes fell out on to the terrace below; plumbed a bathroom so that the sink waste went into the trap at the bottom of the hot-tank, overflowed into the living room; plumbed a kitchen so that the dishwasher and the washing machine can't be run at the same time and there is permanent damp behind and below the kitchen sink; fitted a stove flue upside down so that it poured smoke and condensation into the room; fitted a shutter so that it was plugged into loose mortar and so swung free and was about to fall on the terrace below; buried 'Evrite' sheeting containing asbestos in the back garden, denied it, then said he'd remove it, didn't remove it and an exploratory hole in the garden has revealed it along with heaps of rubble from the works; attached electric rads using insulating tape; did the whole job without insurance; employed people without giving them congé; had to redo a tuiles courbes roof because it was fitted without roofing felt and leaked all over the living room but when you look at the roof now, the 'canals' between the tiles are more wiggly than snakes on a snakes and ladder board and French builders make special trips to our house to come and laugh at it, the floor-tiling was grouted with a grout that turned to powder and when it was redone the tiler shattered the edges of the tiles...shall I go on?

[/quote]

So apart from that Ernie, everything was fine?

Seriously though, the builder recommended to us (yes, by a neighbour) was brilliant. Arrived as agreed, v professional job, no 'funny' extras, invoice as per devis. 30% upfront, I gave him a further 40% well in to the job (because I trusted him), balance immediately on completion. 

I dropped by today because we've got a roof leak (not anything that he did, though he was initially worried) to ask if he could see his way clear..........  Said he'd come by this afternoon or tomorrow.  He didn't this afternoon, nor will it be tomorrow, but we both knew that: it'll be sometime in the next week or so, but no problem.

The point is (as has been said) that the culture is quite a bit different to that which we may have been used to. And ........ at the end of the proverbial day, there are hopeless people in the UK as well as in France.  Good artisans are like gold dust whether here or back there.      

 

[Chancer]

I will be having a plaquist come to do some taping and jointing next week, he is the nephew of a friend and is doing the work during his holiday from his employer so will be working for "argent noire" - please don't write any messages on the legality or morality, I have been here 17 months and in all that time I have never had a registered artisan even turn up to look at work except one electrician who once again is a friend of a friend, he has helped me with paid advice but is still to busy to do any work or even return my calls.

Anyway the young (24 years old) plaquist has recently confirmed that he will be coming but also asked that I be informed that he requires 50% of the money on the morning he starts, he is only supplying his labour, I have bought all the materials.

When I discussed this with his auntie's partner (who has done a similar renovation/conversion to me) his explanation goes some way to showing the other point of view.

He explained that in a situation where trust had not prevoiusly been established, i.e. we are new to each other, both parties are worried, me that he would not turn up after lunch on the first day after taking the money. He that I could refuse to pay at the end and he would have no recourse.

In these circumstances my friend explained it is usual for the risk to be shared between the parties, he also cited some examples of workers not being paid and told "I am not paying you because you are working on the black, what are you going to do about it?"

The plaquist seem a nice lad and I'm sure that at his age he spend his money as quick as he earns it so I am going to discuss a compromise with him before he starts that I pay him a proportion each day and the balance on completion.

When I ran my businesses in England (burglar alarms then gate automation) I always requested a 30% deposit of the quotation price, it was never actually that important to me but it did usually flush out the crooks and fraudsters who had no intention of paying. In situations when I arrived to start work having bought materials (on account), say for example that the client had phoned to confirm the order, if he got out his cheque book to pay the deposit I would usually say wait till the end, if he found many excuses not to I would walk away.

[cooperlola]

I allowed my UK builder/decorator 18 months to prepare my house for sale before leaving for France.  He completed the work two days before the first viewers arrived, in spite of my agreeing he begin the work a year before!  In France, it took a full year before my builders arrived, after the original devis and my paying the 30% deposit.  Builders and other artisans are busy people if they are any good, in England and France, and no doubt other countries as well.  We've coped, we are still here, the work, now finished, is superb.  Chill out guys!

[Lori]

I have to agree with Ian.

We were apprehensive when we first started works with our Macon, Plumber/Electrician as we had heard so many horror stories and read too many books.  However, they turned out to be brilliant.  The Plumber/Electrician is almost anal in his desire to be on time and do perfect work.  He is fantastic.  Our Macon is very good, but as Ian said, will often say he will come by on a particular day or the one after.  I know that means he will be here some time that week.  I understand that and it doesn't bother me.  They are both very very busy, so I know to ask well in advance for further devis's and work.  They have NEVER let us down.  The Macon even did works around our pool - a complicated type of work which involved 115 m2 around our pool.  He didn't like how it turned out - and it was NO small job.  He came back the next year, ripped it out and re-did the work - in a slightly different manner (less complicated, but we chose it) at HIS charge.  This was a huge deal.

So, I have to say that we have been very lucky in this regard and call on these two men regularly for works on our house.

Also, we have never been asked to pay a deposit on a devis, except in the case of the Menuisier (when he did custom windows for us).  After the first job, he never asked for a deposit for further works.  And he too is absolutely fantastic.

They are out there.

[Gardian]

[quote user="Ian Horn"]

I dropped by today because we've got a roof leak (not anything that he did, though he was initially worried) to ask if he could see his way clear..........  Said he'd come by this afternoon or tomorrow.  He didn't this afternoon, nor will it be tomorrow, but we both knew that: it'll be sometime in the next week or so, but no problem.

[/quote]

Gabriel came round yesterday to say that he'd be here Friday (today now, actually!) and he will be, I'm certain.

He had a quick look (took up a dozen or so tiles) and said that the only way to really fix the problem was to have the lot off, clean it all up (full of composted leaves, which exacerbate any leak), seal any obvious problems and re-lay the tiles.  A day's work @ 20€ / hr + TVA.

No Thames Valley rip-off there eh?