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Estate Agents giving Misleading information.


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As I read Miss Babs posts I sort of understand what may have gone on. Normally an agent would not carry out any further check (with regards to waste water) other than to ask the seller if the house is on main drainage, bit like asking what size the power supply is. If the answer is no but it's using a fosse than he and/or the notaire should tell the seller to get a report done as is the law. The agent only believes what the seller tells him/her. In this instance the situation is complicated by the fact that the seller and agent co-habit and without getting inside the two peoples head you don't really know what is going on. Did the agent tell his partner to say it's on main drainage or did he ask and was told it was and believed it to be true? It really is impossible for us (on the forum) to say as we are not involved and don't know who these people are.

I know a couple who bought a house and discovered in the high temps last year a nasty smell from the front of their house. They called a plumber and he roded the drain only to discover the pipe ran out of their house straight in to a drainage ditch. They approached the mayor who was in a state of total disbelief and at that time with no mains drainage nearby they were left with the cost of putting a fosse in. Fortunately a new gendarmerie is going to be built at the end of their road and the council are running in a new sewer for it. A casual conversation took place between the owner and the guys putting the sewer in when they came to tell him he wouldn't be able to get his car out for the day. He discovered in the course of the conversation that the new sewer ran within half a metre of the end of his pipe. He paid for the 'T' piece and gave them a 'drink' and they connected him up. Now these people were really lucky and it's not the norm for this to happen and boy were they happy as by chance they had just saved themselves a fortune.

In my case I have a fosse which goes through a fat trap then straight in to the river. My house is lower than the sewer. The mayor will pay for the sewer to be extended to our boundary. We will have to pay for the fosse outlet to be blocked off and a pump installed to pump the waste up to the main sewer. The mayor can give us a price for the equipment and a person to install it. We have been waiting 18 months for him to get back to us.

 

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Thanks for all the replies, it just shows how hard it is when you are trying to do the right thing with the patchy knowledge we have, we're never going to be experts you try to get it included correctly in the compromis to make it a water tight case but it never seems to turn out that straight forward, least were not alone, but if someone doesn't stand up to this sort of thing it will continue.
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[quote user="Miss Babs"]

Added complication, the vendor and Immo are long term live in partners and the Immo had a conflict of interest which hadn't been declared when the price was negotiated.[:'(] [/quote]

I wouldn't say this was an added complication - more of a point in your favour. Any conflict of interest should have been made known to you at the onset of you indicating any interest in the possibility of purchase.

Daryl

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Once again the benefits of getting a professional involved become obvious.  Our French solicitor in UK checked everything out & found out that all the grey water went straight into the roadside ditch, and only the WC was connected to the fosse.

Result - she got the price rediced by 6000 euros, half from the vendor & half from the immo.

Caveat emptor

Peter

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I'm sure your solicitor didn't go and look at your fosse, we got an expert (which was written into the compromis) to do it instead which doesn't take away from the fact that the immo lied, so it isn't caveat emptor I'm afraid, By saying you had your English based solicitor to do all the checks gives people  the wrong impression of the french buying process and that the French cannot be trusted which to be honest I find quite offensive let us not forget in this situation its an English person that has been economical with the truth, and if we were only claiming for 6000 euros we would have settled this a while ago. so frankly I find your comments unhelpful and if you just want somebody to say clever old you, you won't be hearing it from me.
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I'm afraid that you are missing the point. The object of the exercise is to engage a French solicitor, fully conversant with house purchase procedures in France, who knows what pitfalls await buyers, and knows what questions to ask and what searches to make. [In our case it was a very simple question - "You have stated that the house is connected to a fosse septique. Does all the house waste go into the fosse? Does it comply with current French legislation?"]

Using a solicitor based in the UK and speaking English makes the whole purchase procedure easier for us Brits to deal with. There shouldn't be any nasty surprises - If all the right questions have been asked, and subsequently one finds that things are not what were stated, one has a comeback.

It isn't a case of 'clever old me' - You wouldn't buy a house in the UK without instructing a solicitor and probably a surveyor, so why do so in France, when there is the added complication of the language barrier?

And re the 'Caveat Emptor' I think Will made exactly the same point earlier!

Peter

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Whilst we had a structural survey done we wouldn't have dreamed of appointing an English solicitor.  I'm not sure what they could have added - other than cost- to what the notaire (who is an independant government official) provided.  From what I can see, Peter, your main issue is you don't speak French and so, tbh, the answer to that would be learn the language before you move / use a translator.

It is my understanding that the notaire has an obligation to inform the purchaser whether the fosse complies - or doesn't before the contracts are signed.  Ours certainly did.

Kathie

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I wouldn't instruct an English solicitor either! I instructed a French solicitor, specialising in conveyancing, who happens to be based in the UK.

My French is excellent, but it doesn't stretch to legal terminology. I speak fluent English, but that does not mean thatI'd cut out the solicitor on a UK conveyance!

Will is spot on - The Notaire is a State Official who's only job is to ensure that the conveyance complies with the French requirements.

Peter

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[quote user="hastobe"]
It is my understanding that the notaire has an obligation to inform the purchaser whether the fosse complies - or doesn't before the contracts are signed.  Ours certainly did.

Kathie
[/quote]

Perhaps Peter bought his house before the rules on having a report on the state of the Fosse became a legal requirement as it certainly wasn't when we bought 5 years ago.

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Having read all the above, I am bewildered as to who is blaming who, and why. I work in the property business and am amazed at the climate of mistrust in which many British buyers seem to approach the business of buying their home, even when one is clearly trying to help. For example, I regularly use a firm of notaires that I know will be attentive to potential problems (they occur in virtually every sale) and yet on this forum and elsewhere advice is given 'Never use a notaire proposed by the agent'! as though there is some sinister plot to disguise problems or at worst receive some kind of backhander from the notaire, a recommended suveyor, architect etc. The whole point about using local experts is that my definition they are both local and expert. Especially in smaller communities, things are frequently sorted out face to face with the relevant official in the mairie, the DDE, Batiments de France etc. Property buying and selling in France is rigorously controlled by law and my only plea to readers of this forum is to learn about and understand the process - and have faith in it.

P-D de R 

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The English don't normally like or trust estate agents in the UK (bit like insurance salesmen). There are so many stories about UK agents, sometimes working with solicitors who are trying to con people. Most of the time of course this is utter rubbish but has become an urban myth. You will normally hardly ever find a person who has been 'had'. What you will find is people who know a person, or knows a person who knows a person that it has happened to. Unfortunatly they view the French system the same way.

My agent was very good and did what I wanted. The notaire did not reply to emails from either ourselves or the agent but that does seem to happen a lot in France. As a result we stopped the sale at the point of signing, our problems were very quickly rectified. After the sale our agent changed his prefered notaire. To me it's just one of those things, we are English, the property is in France and it's a different system and culture. To compair the two is just plain silly but thats what the English do. Where the poblem lies is in exactly what P-D said is that we don't understand the process. Perhaps he would like to write it all down and take questions. It would help both his profession and forum members.

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We bought privately from an American so minimising language difficulties. The seller selected the notaire and (probably through ignorance) we saw nothing wrong in this. We engaged the services of a UK based solicitor allegedly an expert on French property transactions to help guide us through the minefield but she was a total waste of time and money (but that's another story).

On completion day the notaire (representing neither party or both depending on yr point of view) went through the contract line by line saying all the time to us - "do you understand ? do you really understand ? are you sure that you really understand ?".

The law, custom and practice on buying/selling houses is different in England versus France (not necessarily better or worse just different). In France many English expect an estate agent to do things that they they would not expect to be done in England e.g. transferring EDF, gas, water etc. Why ? Maybe it's a language thing or maybe the fees are higher and they want more for their money. There are 2 things to remember in daily life

1. You only get the right answer if you ask the right question

2. There will always be someone who says "I could have got you a better deal" but only AFTER you have signed the contract.

John

not

 

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Peter, why would you ask how the fosse is to current standard when you've been shown the village drains manhole cover, been drawn a picture where the pipe connects and then we asked this to be confirmed by a specialist and written into the compromis , frankly your solicitor would not have asked to do anything different, of course we even asked if the house had a fosse and we were told it was on village drains at that point there was little else we could do to clarify the situation apart from the action we took, the whole point being is that if someone lies to you how do you get the refunded the additional cost and out of who's pocket it comes. If you cast your mind back to the No Going Back series with the London couple who moved to Provence they had the same problem with no drains / fosse on a house that had been built in the 60's and even though they hadn't had it written into the compromis they could still claim the cost as the drains are not clearly visible when the house was purchased , so I think that French authorities do not look favourably on vendors who lie.
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Miss Babs - I'm not a lawyer, merely a simple Water Company land agent. However, in simple terms, if the vendor/immo has told you that the property is directly connected to mains drainage, and it isn't, then that is misrepresentation.

However, if you were told that the drainage is ultimately connected to the main sewer [ie, all they have done is pipe the fosse to the main sewer], then I think I would have asked more questions.

I know from experience that when I was involved with first time sewerage schemes we always connected the property directly to the sewer, and recommended that the septic tank was decommissioned and filled in.

I suspect from what you have said that in your case all they have done is pipe the fosse outfall to the main drain [instead of into the ditch]. It's likely that the fosse itself didn't work as it should, so smells would be a problem.

There was also the wonderful case [maybe the one you have mentioned] where the drainage outfall from the house merely went through the wall & discharged onto the garden!

Peter

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Peter, it turns out tthat the village drains is actually just a collection of 2 or 3 houses which share the same system, and it cannot be joined into, the Maire has now also said that as its such a tiny village (65 people) that it will never have any kind of collective system. We've had the work done and paid the builder but I'm b*****ed if we going to pay all the bill, the whole garden is now going to have to be re-landscaped so its not just the cost of the Fosse , and it makes me so mad that the immo is better off by 17k (fees) by lying, I understand that its not illegal to sell your own property as an immo but surely you cannot lie to make the sale. The immo or vendor never mentioned a fosse when we discussed drainage.

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Miss Babs

As I understand it, you have 3 issues here:

  1. Conflict of interest because of a personal relationship between the immo and the vendor. I think I'd ignore that for the moment because that doesn't necessarily show negligence.
  2. You were told the property had main drainage and this was verified by an expert. Were you told that the fosse was redundant, and your drainage was directly connected to the mains system?
  3. The mains drainage system doesn't actually exist, according to information now received from the Mairie.

On points 2&3 I think you need to consult a solicitor because even if the immo got it wrong [he could argue that he was merely passing on what he had been told by the vendor], clearly the 'expert' got it wrong. If there is no mains drainage system in existence he should have known this if he had local knowledge - a simple check with the mairie and/or  the 'assainissement' people was all that was needed [something my girl would have checked as part of the conveyancing].

I personally think that this has been aired enough on this forum, and if my summary of points 2&3 is correct, you need to start legal proceedings, probably against the expert, because he is the one who appears to have been negligent. The immo can quite rightly argue that he is not a surveyor, and he was merely acting on instructions and information received from his client. Even the vendor could claim to be innocent since being a vendor does not make one a drainage expert - the vendor could merely argue that as far as they understood they had been connected to an independent drainage system, and the old fosse was no longer relevant.

Peter

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Not quite as the expert couldn't complete the survey ( this has been mentioned already and we would get the completed results after the final signing) because the vendor didn't fill in all the forms and the survey only happened because the Notaire organised it 3 days before for completeion as the Immo had been asked to do it at the Compromis and didn't, if your interested it's in the legal bit about lawyers. I will post the outcome when it happens as it happens frequently to purchasers even when they think they have it covered legally so if it helps anyone so much the better.
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It still sounds as if the expert, the notaire and the agent all have something to answer for, but in typical fashion each is trying to offload the responsibility to somebody else.

The expert should have raised the alarm if he was not permitted to complete the survey he had been commissioned to do, and as Peter says, local knowledge or a check with the drainage authority would have alerted him to the fact that some dodgy dealings might be going on.

The notaire seems to have overlooked the fact that the required surveys had not been carried out until it was far too late, and in trying to salvage the situation has only confused things further.

The agent, under normal circumstances, would not really be responsible, as Peter says, relying on information from the vendor, but as there is a clear relationship between agent and vendor it does muddy the waters. Even though neither could necessarily be expected to know a lot about drainage, either or both should have been aware that there was a problem.

In some ways the buyer too has to bear some responsibility - the Acte de Vente is a legal document, and by signing it the buyer in effect accepts the condition of the house there and then. If the Acte and the various associated documents like the surveys are incorrect or incomplete then the buyer is not compelled to sign, and would be well advised not to. But a non-French buyer cannot of course be expected to know everything there is to know about the French house sale process (though ignorance is no defence in law).

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[quote user="Will"]

 

In some ways the buyer too has to bear some responsibility - the Acte de Vente is a legal document, and by signing it the buyer in effect accepts the condition of the house there and then. If the Acte and the various associated documents like the surveys are incorrect or incomplete then the buyer is not compelled to sign, and would be well advised not to. But a non-French buyer cannot of course be expected to know everything there is to know about the French house sale process (though ignorance is no defence in law).

[/quote]

Which brings me back neatly to my original argument - Don't do it without professional advice!

Peter

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Hello,

If you are trying to find a person who deals in property and is descent and

moral then good luck to you.  It's like the Devil said to Saint Paul when

God Threatened to sue him..... "Where is he going to get a

Lawyer??!!!"

Your question concerns the behaviour of an Estate Agent in France.  Many

will mention 'Buyer Beware' and so on.  The fact is in UK and France if

there is a substantial misrepresentation and you depend upon that

misrepresentation to purchase you do have recourse...    See 

a Lawyer.  Concealing facts YOU consider relevant is not enough... 

It must be a false statement (a lie or so careless as to constitute a lie) upon

which you rely.

But what about the Estate Agent who does not just lie about the property but

lies about himself?  Is there such a

thing? One that would lie about their qualifications? …. Surely no one is so

stupid.

I know a very well 'respected' Agency in Bordeaux which claims to be founded and

run by a 'UK Chartered Surveyor'  In fact they are not.  This has

been confirmed by the RICS and by the Estate Agent’s husband when I

asked. 

They admit only ever having been an associate to the RICS (which

one may be even as a student).  A Chartered Surveyor is a very different

beast to an associate of the RICS.   It is akin to a hospital porter

calling himself a brain surgeon…..  I

have told them about this but the refuse to remove the reference from their

website, this in spite of the fact that they admit to never having been

chartered. 

This amounts to a deliberate misrepresentation.  They may smugly continue

now just as the lamb quietly eats grass whilst the wolves are closing in

deliberately oblivious to the fact that for all ill deeds one must, eventually

account...... 

Now if one (vendor or purchaser) were to depend on the person

in question to give advise, one might reasonably expect a certain level of expertise,

as suggested by the Chartership......  One might then base their decisions

on that expertise..... but as that expertise is lacking, a mistake might easily

be made.

In the Uk if that advise is wrong one may sue the person and that person’s

professional indemnity would cover them..... But you can't be insured as a

Chartered Surveyor unless you is one....

Would you deal with a person who based their very business upon a blatant,

relevant, substantial, misleading lie, who even after being told of the problem

refuses to remove the reference.  I

would not.

The irony is, or seems to be that the RICS cannot stop someone pretending to be

Chartered...... Only Trading Standards can do this.... and as the business is

based in France the Trading Standards have no teeth here....... or do they?

Check out this site...... http://www.euroconsumer.org.uk/

Does anyone know of the organisation which gives estate agent licences in

France?  Surely they would take a dim view of this.

have to go now to check if they have NOW removed the lie.

Woof Woof.....

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Katie,

Unusual to see someone who knowswhat RICS and CIOB is and what the difference is.

I was surprised you mention RICS is recognised here in France.  I recently contacted them to report an Estate Agent in France using the reference 'UK Chartered Surveyor' and they told me they could not touch someone in France.  They also told me that even in the Uk it would be Trading Standards who could do something, not the RICS.  I was very surprised at this.  Do you know different?

I am keen to get this person to stop using the reference.  I am a member of several Professional Bodies and worked bloomin hard to get there and I really resnt others so easily using professional references.

Woof Woof

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