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Estate Agents giving Misleading information.


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I do find it difficult in France to judge house prices because there does not seem to be any rhyme or reason with some of the asking prices.

I have seen it stated (several times on English speaking websites of various natures) that one cannot make too low an offer or the owner may be offended and I wonder if this is just a myth put out by parties with a vested interest to discourage people from doing just that ! I imagine that many non French buyers don't know the vendor from Adam and why should they worry overly if the seller is offended ?

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[quote user="Will"]

........ in the absence of any meaningful qualification in estate agency in Britain .......[/quote]

Sorry Will, this isn't quite accurate. There is a qualification body - The National Association of Estate Agents offer various grades of membership following examinations for qualification. They administer the NVQ Modern Apprenticeship in the Sale of Residential Property, through to the Diploma in Residential Estate Agency (DipREA). The Association wants more regulation in the industry, but only the most reputable firms insist on these qualifications for their staff.

The Department of Trade and Industry proposed that all estate agents join an ombudsman service. Many have already done so, and thousands of complaints are investigated each year. In the absence of a National Standard, the Office of Fair Trading can, and does, ban Estate Agents for life for serious breaches of the Estate Agent Act 1979.

 

With the introduction of Home Information Packs later this year, even RICS Chartered Surveyors will be unable to complete a Home Inspection Report (Survey) unless they are qualified as a Home Inspector. Interestingly, Home Information Packs in one guise or another, will be a requirement throughout the EU membership and France is already well ahead of the UK in some aspects of the reporting procedure.

Those that qualify as Home Inspectors within the UK should have an equal opportunity to practice their skills elsewhere within the EU however, if France chooses to adopt similar measures as those applied to non-nationals wishing to set-up as Estate Agents, I doubt if the opportunity will ever present itself!

Daryl
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Yes, I know about the NAEA and it would be great to see qualifications like that widely adopted.

But it doesn't alter the fact that anybody can set up in business as an estate agent with no qualifications or experience. And knowing the antics that employees of even some of the big names in the business get up to it doesn't say much for the way the profession is policed (or not) or the true value of the qualifications. Various British governments have been talking about regulating the profession for more years than many houses have been standing but it has only ever been talk. The number of complaints is a useful pointer to the low regard the general public has for the profession. Both the NAEA and the RICS would, naturally enough, like to see their qualifications providing the basis for regulation.

The Home Information Pack is another half-hearted measure that looks as if it could increase, rather than decrease, paperwork, delay and cost. I was reading only yesterday that it looked as if the condition survey, which many consider to be the most important part, would most likely be optional, so it looks as if the idea is doomed before it starts. Even if it was obligatory, would you, or you mortgage lender, necessarily put 100% trust in a value/condition survey provided by the seller or the selling agent? If even RICS surveyors are not qualified to provide the report, that shows what a farce the proposals are. Don't get me started, please.

I share your scepticism about France accepting non-French qualifications, though, ironically, estate agency is one business that is comparatively straightforward for a non-national to start in France, as long as they can either get a French law qualification, build up experience in France, or be recommended for the full carte professionelle. And anybody can be an agent mandataire, regardless of qualifications, experience etc.

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How well would you trust a used car salesman?

I think the answer to that is that most people would be very wary. He only makes his money if he sells a car. If he tells you 'this car is a load of rubbish' he will not make any money and the car will remain on the forecourt.

Is there any difference between selling cars and houses - do not sell any do not make any money.

In our searching we found agents who tried to show us houses they thought we were looking for, others who showed us anything in the hope of getting a sale. Some told us that the owner would take less for a property - presumably they wanted a sale and knew that the owner also wanted to sell fairly quickly. We were shown some houses with problems. However, I did not expect nor did the agents point out problems. I firmly believe it is down to the buyer to either thoroughly inspect or get someone else to inspect the property. It is not for the agent to act as the surveyor.

Paul

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Will, you are quite correct in that the home conditions part of the report will be optional.  Those in the profession do not expect this option to be taken up in high numbers.   At the moment most purchasers opt to take a mere mortgage valuation rather than the more comprehensive homebuyers report and, it is these individuals who, unfortunately start wailing when the surveyor misses something like dry rot and no claim can be made because the surveyor was working purely on behalf of the lender.

The fact that the home conditions report is now optional has been widely welcomed amongst surveyors and estate agents in the UK due to the fact that it is believed that should it be mandatory, we could see the housing market slowing down.  It would be an awful shame should the government receive a decline in revenue received from stamp duty should this occur.[:D]

 

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Paul, what if you ask the immo a direct question and he lies and then further lies by ommission about facts that we now know he had all along, that can hardly be buyer beware especially as it was about drains/ fosse which are not visible, we hardly talking about small sums of money here and surely as they are regulated you should have some come back? it really p's me off when certain (english in north gers immo) thinks they can get away with it, he also blocked us getting the full information from a specialist by not furnishing him with the informtion he requested surely there has to be some comeback as a buyer (which our lawyer thinks we have) Houses are not used cars and cost a damn site more money.[:@]
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[quote user="Miss Babs"] "he also blocked us getting the full information from a specialist by not furnishing him with the informtion he requested" [:@][/quote]

When did you discover from your specialist that he had not received the information asked for and could you indicate what sort of specialist he is/was?

 

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[quote user="P"]

He only makes his money if he sells a car. If he tells you 'this car is a load of rubbish' he will not make any money and the car will remain on the forecourt.

Is there any difference between selling cars and houses - do not sell any do not make any money.

[/quote]

Does anybody else remember the legendary London agent from the 1970s, the late Roy Brooks? He became famous for his frank and honest house ads, I think there were books compiled of them, they were so good.

There are honest agents in France - perhaps not gleefully pointing out the faults, but not hiding them, answering questions honestly, and discouraging clients from getting too hopeful when the picture in the book doesn't show the sawmill next door... I know, I'm married to one of them. She may not sell quite as many as the rogue agents, but she gets a lot more repeat business and recommendation (and people often say they are sorry if they buy elsewhere because they would much rather have bought from her) and she doesn't do too badly overall, to say the least.

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Spot on Will. Like any form of business theres good and bad, more good than bad normally. It's just that people always talk about and remember the bad ones. We have four in our town and there has been some negative talk about one of them yet nobody ever talks about the others although I used one of them and they were excellent and I am always happy to mention them when we get people house hunting.

Edit - You can hardly compare used car salesmen to estate agents, well in France anyway [;-)] .

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Quillan, the information was requested at the compromis by the Notaire to the immo from an independant specialist, 2 weeks before the acte de vente we asked the Immo when we would see the report, and had no answer, The Notaire still hadn't recieved anything 3 days before the acte de vente so organised to have the survey done as we couldn't complete with out the survey as it was a clause suspensive, when we turned up on the day we signed we'ed seen an incomplete report and it was noted the we would recieve a completed report in time. 6 -8 weeks later still no report so we contacted the Notaire as the house was unbearable because of the smell. it turned out that the immo hadn't sent the information that had been requested nor had the vendor (his girlfriend/ live in longterm partner) and even when the Notaire chased it up with the vendor she ignored the email. We are now at the point where we have all been back to the Notaires and I've been to see the immos boss (who licencess him) to find a solution as we are now seriously out of pocket as we had to put in a new fosse , but we are prepared to take it to the Immos governing body and court if necessary, we are in a lucky postition as we still have income and a business in the UK but if we had sold up and moved out we really would be in the S**T and not just because the drains weren't working.

Edit, I want to add that apart from this the whole process has been great, we've had the help and assistance from both French and English, and I don't think what has happened to us is because we are in France just that we ran into a low life with no morals who's a real charmer

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Babs, this sort of thing is all too common in France, though usually the agent works with the buyer to try and get it sorted, and all too often the notaires have a rather cavalier attitude to the reports. In your case it is the other way round. But just because it happens doesn't mean it is right so I hope you do get some sort of redress. It is in the interest of all honest agents to have the poor ones brought to book. If you do a search (try the word 'commission') you will find a fairly recent topic, that has been locked so you can't add to it but can still read it, about somebody who took action against an agent. I mention that here because I now know which agent this was (not the large one with the three letter name as some thought), and the subject of the action was diffeent, but this agent has been known to misrepresent drainage arrangments in the past.

Although you are right that estate agency is regulated in France, unfortunately the regulation concerns only things like registration and qualifications. Competence or honesty do not seem to come into the equation.

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We asked for some specific things to be done before we signed the acte de vente. When we all sat down and the notaire read out the contract there was no mention of what we wanted being written in, we refused to sign the contract and everyone went a bit loopy. I produced my file with copies of the request and in the end we had to wait 3 hours (2 for lunch and one to do the work) whilst a new contract was prepared.

It is not unreasonable to refuse to sign if you are not happy with things and in particular if things that have been agreed to be done have not or only part done. As a poster said we are talking large sums of money here and not chicken feed. In some cases it's people life savings and it is very important that things are right.

Personally speaking I don't think I would have signed either to say I have received half the report (which was basically worthless without the other half) or the actual acte de vente particularly as the survey report was an integral part of the contract. I personally know of two people who have refused to sign because they were not happy and it was amazing how quickly the issues were resolved in their entirety (the French are the same as anyone else when hey can smell he money they will do anything you ask). One person actually got €10k knocked of the price for funny enough a fosse septic that was faulty and was suppose to have been fixed but wasn't (its our neighbour). That is a very good reason for checking the property a couple of hours before you sign which is your right. Also you should demand to see any invoices for work that the seller committed to undertake as part of the purchasing of the property. The agreement for such works should have been agreed in writing and signed by both parties in front of the agent or notaire who should countersign.

Will got in before me as I was typing this so I won’t add what is basically the same as Will and like him I hope you get the issue resolved.

 

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[quote user="Will"][quote user="P"]

He only makes his money if he sells a car. If he tells you 'this car is a load of rubbish' he will not make any money and the car will remain on the forecourt.

Is there any difference between selling cars and houses - do not sell any do not make any money.

[/quote]

Does anybody else remember the legendary London agent from the 1970s, the late Roy Brooks? He became famous for his frank and honest house ads, I think there were books compiled of them, they were so good.

There are honest agents in France - perhaps not gleefully pointing out the faults, but not hiding them, answering questions honestly, and discouraging clients from getting too hopeful when the picture in the book doesn't show the sawmill next door... I know, I'm married to one of them. She may not sell quite as many as the rogue agents, but she gets a lot more repeat business and recommendation (and people often say they are sorry if they buy elsewhere because they would much rather have bought from her) and she doesn't do too badly overall, to say the least.

[/quote]

When I lived in Africa in the mid 70's  I used to read Clive James on TV and Ray Brooks on property despite having no hopes of buying in the UK or watching UK TV.  

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Quillan, we had check the property before we went to sign and there was still an problem with drain smells, there were a lot of other issues but we could see what they were and set a budget to fix them, its really hard when your put on the spot, if there had been no report at all we wouldn't have signed but there was this half report and we thought because of that we have some redress when the other half arrives, but I thought it would have been more straight forward than it has been, as we had mentioned the issue from the start and had in the compromis and final act, the Notaire had witnessed all the discussions but as they were between all English speaking parties some on the finer detail may have been lost on her. As it turned out the house had a fosse and was condemed by the SPANC people we thought they would have to pay up straight away, it just seems to be taking longer than expected and I'm sure that they are hoping that as we still live in the UK we are too frightened or think its not worth the hassle, but how wrong they are! Sometimes you just have to stand up for what is right.
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I rather think it could be the notaire that may be at fault. The reason I say this is because have been searching through the recent forum posts for something I had read which I have now found and I quote.:

"Sellers have to provide proper details of the drainage arrangements - which can range from a fully-compliant connection to the mains or new-style septic tank, through an older septic tank system (that works well but may not be to current standards) or a very old system, to nothing at all. It doesn't mean, as has been said in some other forums, that you cannot sell a house unless it has drains meeting current rules, it just means that the seller has to declare what there is, and the new owner is supposed to sort it out."

This is from Wills post in http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/852832/ShowPost.aspx 

I therefore assume that you didn't get this and that was the bit you were waiting for. Now this report being done is law and it's down to the seller to get it. If it was not done then the legal requirements to make the sale were not met so the notaire didn't do his job. As Will said some people believe it's the sellers responsibility to get any work required done and this may have put them off getting the report thinking if they can drag it out they can get away without paying anything. Especially as they probably knew that the fosse did not meet current regulations and was faulty anyway.

The other thing I noticed in other posts (do a search on SPANC in this forum) that the official group who have the task of carrying out these inspections (SPANC) are so over worked that it can take months and months (over 6 have been quoted) to get round to carrying out inspections so your seller MAY be telling the truth.

It could be that your notaire took the attitude that to progress with the sale he could get round the situation the way he did working on the theory that any repairs would be down to the buyer (you) anyway so if the fosse just needed a clean it would be a minor cost but if it needed replaced it didn't matter because again it's down to you. If, on the other hand, the seller agreed to make any repairs (which he did not have to do) then I can't see why the notaire did not hold money back from the seller until everything was done even though he was allowing the sale to progress.

Now I'm no expert in all this it’s just what I found out reading other posts and also the excellent article in LF magazine this month but at the end of the day I think you should get professional (legal) advice which you may of course have already done.

Good luck and I wish you a speedy resolution to your problems.

 

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Quillan - thanks for finding that.

I'm not at all sure whether the drainage report is required in every part of France. We have had it for three or four years, but other areas have only introduced it recently, if at all.

It depends exacrly what was agreed between seller and buyer. I got the impression - though could easily be wrong - that the smelly septic tank would be sorted out for the buyer, which appears not to have been done. Of course, if the buyer was merely expecting to get a fully-working system and hadn't discussed it with the seller or agent that puts it in a different light.

I tend to agree about the notaire. The way notaires work is that they have quite a narrow remit of checks to carry out as part of the sale - things like has planning permission been granted for buildings/alterations on the property, do the sellers have legal title, are the boundaries recorded, have the sellers provided the reports, are there no hidden reserved heirs who may object to the sale, has the buyer paid the money, icluded taxes, is any plus value due, etc - and do no more than the minimum, though some will be rather more helpful. If specifically asked to check extra points, or go into more detail, or give additional advice, they should. But they don't always do that. If the problems with the septic tank were specifically raised with the notaire and he was asked to ensure that the issues were solved, then the notaire should do that. Otherwise, it's down to the buyer to check that everything is in order before signing.

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[quote user="Miss Babs"]Paul, what if you ask the immo a direct question and he lies and then further lies by ommission about facts that we now know he had all along, [:@][/quote]

Yes, but I think you need to be very careful in asking exactly the right question to get the right answer, and the right question may have been asked and an untruthful answer given.

Thee is a scene in an episode of 'Yes Prime Minister' where the new PM says to Sir Applebly:

'Well, you always answered the questions I asked you'.

To which the reply comes

'I'm glad you think so'.

Human nature and also some of the agents that we dealt with who showed us properties of the type that we were not looking for and were so pushy put into my mind that they were desperate for the commission which made me very wary. We had one case of an agent taking us to see a house we had previously looked at and, yes we did want  second look. The agent taking us to see it for a second time was not the same one that showed us the first time - apparently she had forgotten the appointment - and this second agent had to fit it in between another appointment. However, on the way there we got 'there are another couple interested' 'they are having a survey carried out' etc and when we arrived there, lo and behold the owner was there with whom the agent had a discussion and came back saying that the owner would be prepared to lower the price and then even more pressure. The house had problems and we walked away and on the drive back the agent was still trying to sell us the property. The desperation was great so would he lie?

Paul

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[quote user="Miss Babs"]Quillan, we had check the property before we went to sign and there was still an problem with drain smells, there were a lot of other issues but we could see what they were and set a budget to fix them, its really hard when your put on the spot, if there had been no report at all we wouldn't have signed but there was this half report and we thought because of that we have some redress when the other half arrives, but I thought it would have been more straight forward than it has been, as we had mentioned the issue from the start and had in the compromis and final act, the Notaire had witnessed all the discussions but as they were between all English speaking parties some on the finer detail may have been lost on her. As it turned out the house had a fosse and was condemed by the SPANC people we thought they would have to pay up straight away, it just seems to be taking longer than expected and I'm sure that they are hoping that as we still live in the UK we are too frightened or think its not worth the hassle, but how wrong they are! Sometimes you just have to stand up for what is right.[/quote]

 

What happened to you is exactly what happened to me. Here is my original post.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/694128/ShowPost.aspx

We discovered a letter in our deeds from the water company saying that an inspection was chargeable (€63) and that we (buyers) didn't want it done. My notaire was never told this even though the letter was received by the sellers notaire well before the final contract was signed. There was also no mention at the signing when my notaire attended. She would have deffinately told me as she was very strict about sewer connections.

So it seems that things can be very easily covered up here in France. Even when you think you are doing everything correctly.

I have not bothered pursuing the sellers even though my notaire pointed out to the sellers notaire that they (the sellers) were lying. I felt that any litigation against the sellers may prove to be expensive and stressful so I let it go and put it down to a bad French experience.

 

Edit: There is one good side effect. The sellers have never pursued me for my half of the Taxes Fonciere that I would have owed them [:)]

.

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A bit more clarification

 

  • Our point - We were told it was on village drains by the immo (Immos liability), ie, no major additional cost of extra bathrooms and a pool regarding the drains we thought the report would say that they needed rodding at best or had a partial colapse at worst (neither a major expense), it then turned out to have a dated fosse and need a new fosse (close to 14k euro as its on clay/ slope)

  • the Notaires point is - was it working on the day of completetion (vendors liability) it wasn't as the grey water just goes into the soil and the fosse hadn't been emptied in years and had been recently covered over with soil and the grass reseeded. She was lying by saying that she lived there and had no trouble with them (she didn't, its just a way to avoid CG tax) the Notaire has now  grasped the point of the negotiated price not just about the price of a replacement fosse as we had been told it was on village drains so need moe than just a contribution towards the cost

  • Immos bosses point - did the immo lie when we negotiated the price, he did so is the immos boss now liable as he licenses him

Added complication, the vendor and Immo are long term live in partners and the Immo had a conflict of interest which hadn't been declared when the price was negotiated.[:'(]

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Fulcrum, if I'd only known that when we signed the comromis I would have helped, I was looking for the word Fosse and the phrase you used was transalted as "the house drainage" which is true but  not clarifed, we have already had additional expense the immo B***S****D about not needing central heating etc etc, the quality of the work he had done was poor so we've had to re do a lot of it and we've let all of that go as we new we wanted to do further renovations and didn't want it to spoil the pleasure of having our new home but at some point you have to say enough is enough, we've paid nearly 14k Euros for the Fosse and the Immo's fees were 17k and the buck (Euro!) now has to stop with someone.
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I think there needs to be a forum sticky about possible bad fosse concealment when buying a property in France. It is a major issue because I know of other people who have had something similar happen to them.

Under the current law I believe that the state of the fosse has to be declared to buyers. But buyer beware as there are obviously ways of concealing the truth.

 

Edit:

Here is the text from my final contract.

ASSAINISSEMENT - EAUX USEES

Le vendeur déclare que l'immeuble présentement vendu est raccorde au tout-a- l'égout.

En outre, il résulte d'un courrier de la Générale des Eaux en date du 28 mars 2006, dont l'original est demeure annexe aux présentes, que la rue de Verdun est desservie par Ie réseau d'eau potable et assainissement et que Ie contrôle du branchement par une visite sur les lieux est une prestation facturable.

Le vendeur et l'acquéreur déclarent ne pas vouloir faire effectuer ce contrôle, l'acquéreur déclarent se satisfaire de la déclaration du vendeur.

We didn't of course get to see the all important letter at the time.

 

 

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