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Estate Agents giving Misleading information.


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"Basically we discovered we paid almost double what the house is worth.....!"

I am not sure how you would be able to know this and IMH experience locals are good a telling people what a property is worth but often they are not up to date and they are not always right.

 

Sorry to hear of your dilemma and hope it won't cloud your dreams too much.

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Did this house cost twice as much as comparable properties that you saw and which are advertised in local agents?  That's a better guide than what neighbours say, unless they all bought their houses recently and they are similar to yours.  You could be getting stressed needlessly. 

EDIT: If it was overpriced, surely paying too much would not be a basis for legal action? Caveat emptor.

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I'm with the above 2 posters.  Some locals delight in telling us that Brits are sold overpriced houses when the fact was that a French couple bought the very similar house opposite for 30k euros more than we paid for ours, a couple of years' later.  Don't be too mislead by the gossipers - many of them will have lived in the same place for years and are well out of touch with property prices.  They seem to delight (in a not-unkind way, really) in telling Brits they've been "had"!
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Sorry to disappoint you, but in France things are very much 'let the buyer beware' with little of the consumerism that one finds in, say, Britain and America. Some say that's a good thing - others will disagree.

The onus is very much on the buyer to ensure that everything is in order before signing the compromis de vente, which is a legal document that cannot normally be escaped from without a financial penalty. You don't make it clear whether the problems came to light before or after signing the final acte de vente; if you have not yet signed the final acte you may do well to withdraw from the sale and suffer the 10% penalty. That's better than losing nearly 50% if, as you say, you paid nearly double (and where did that valuation come from?).

Estate agency in France is in many ways more tightly controlled than in England, but the controls concentrate on people being properly registered to carry out the business, and the administrative aspects of the business, rather than whether or not those carrying out the business are competent, decent or trustworthy. Hence the French property business has more than its fair share of rogues (and I include a few members of the notarial profession in that, as they work in conjunction with the 'dodgy' agents and allow them to operate as well as running their own house sales scams, sorry, operations).

Is the agent concerned a member of FNAIM or a similar association? If so you could involve them; they do have a commitment to maintain certain standards, though they do also fulfil the role of a trade association to look after the members.

Otherwise, do you know that the agent you dealt with is properly registered to operate in France? You should examine his business structure. He should carry a carte profesionelle - if it is a full (I believe green) one he is fully registered and qualified in his own right. Many more agents, particularly non-French, are agent commercial or agent mandataire as it is often known now, with a grey card, affiliated to a fully-registered principal agent. If the latter, you should complain to the principal agent. If he is not registered, then you can involve the gendarmes - France doesn't have the clear distinction between civil and criminal law that exists in England - in  France running an unregistered business, and most other types of fraud, are criminal offences.

The well-presented, professional and plausible crooks are generally the most successful con-artists. Just think of the guy who set up and ran an arm of a major French bank specialising in British clients, and was, not too long ago, convicted of serious fraud. He is now running his own financial consultancy (still in France), and a nicer, more plausible person you could never hope to meet.

Sorry if I have not managed to say what you wanted to hear, but without knowing the specifics, including exactly what problems there were with the house and when they came to light, it is difficult to give more than the most general comment or advice. If you look back a few days on the forum you will find a story of somebody who took legal action against an allegedly illegal estate agent in France, so that might give you some hope.

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I really do believe that in France you pay the price you "think" the property is worth to you. It really is the only way to value French properties.

Most UK purchasers pay too much for their first house in France. There are just too many unknowns Anything written in English should be taken with a pinch of salt unless it has an equal correct translation in French.

 

 

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[quote user="fulcrum"]

Most UK purchasers pay too much for their first house in France.

[/quote]

It would be interesting to know whether that is true.  I take it you don't think that Brits are so inclined to bargain the price hard here, as they would in Britain, Mr Lever?  I suspect you are right, in the main.

There is an awful lot of stuff on the market that I would call overpriced - just as there always has been.  We've had a number of disappointed househunters in the past year who have had to rethink their plans/budgets once they have started looking, having first been lured here by English agents feeding unrealistic expectations.

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Having also been on the wrong end of a British ‘agent’ in France a few years back and having seen 'the light' and escaping with my wallet intact I learnt early on to only look at French websites that display the FNIM badge.

Personally the best tip I can give is get in your car or a plane and get here then look around towns at estate agents. It's OK to use an English speaking person from such an agency because you have the agency to fall back on as Will says.

Unfortunately there are loads of agencies that are based in the UK selling in France who seem to have loads of properties all over France for sale. What I believe they are doing is just taking details from French agents and/or websites without even visiting the properties they then sell them either taking a cut from the agents commission or charging the buyer a 'finders fee' which I feel is quite wrong. I think there may be some quite legitimate ones but unfortunately the bad ones reflect on the good ones so personally I wouldn't touch a person selling French houses from the UK or a UK based website. If I had a Euro for every disappointed potential buyer who has stayed at my place and gone this route I would have a lot more money in the bank than I have now. To be fair I did have a couple stay about 3 years back who used one of these companies and is still very happy with their new home but that’s one out of very many.

As for pricing I totally agree with what has been said. My opinion is that if you buy a house and it’s the one you want and you feel, when you hand over your money, that you have paid a good price then that’s all that matters. We still have people staying who come house hunting looking for chateaus for £20k and when you tell them they don’t exist (after you have stopped laughing and got up off the floor) they tell you that you are totally wrong because they have seen them on TV.

As to the Chartered Surveyor thing well as far as I am aware this qualification is not valid in France anyway, if I am wrong I am sure others like Will can correct me.

 

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Did the person who ran the agency (the "Chartered Surveyor") actually carry out a survey for you and did you pay him for this survey ? If you paid him to carry out a survey then would have recourse to any omissions in his report. However, most survey reports I have seen do not really discuss if you are paying too much. They tend to concentrate on structural issues, etc. (or rather what they have not checked and what they are not liable for !!). Also, I would suggest that using a Surveyor who is also the estate agent selling the property might be best avoided (common sense ?).

If you did not pay him for a survey then you really cannot expect to have any comeback on a survey he did not carry out.

As to the price you paid - I assume that you saw more than one property and that you thus had other property prices to compare against. When I was looking I found a vast range of prices for properties (or rather a vast range of properties in my price range). Some were clearly overprices, others under priced. Either way it tends to be the vendor who sets the price they want (though often advised by the agent). The vendor and agent want to get the best price for the property (everybody does this - its life). Some places I saw were great but the price was unrealistic - but I'm sure that in the end they would find somebody (or lower the price or wait for price inflation to make the price realistic).

I would think the main person benefiting from a high price would be the vendor so if you think you have paid too much maybe take it up with them - but they were only dong what everybody does when selling (getting the best price they can).

It is difficult to comment other than in general terms as you do not give examples about the mis-representation (other than calling himself a "Chartered Surveyor" which would not affect you unless you were getting the Estate Agent to do a survey for you as well).

I would also avoid making generalisations when saying people in France are dishonest. I have certainly not found this to be the case (pretty much the same as the UK). Locals can certainly be "wind-up" merchants when it comes to house prices. They may say you paid twice what it was worth but wait till one of them puts their house on the market (for twice what you paid for yours !!).

Sorry if it sounds a bit negative but I tend to think one has to look forward in life.

Ian

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Some of the British referral agencies are very good, some are useless. Just as with everything else. A few charge a fee to the buyer for so-called extra services, most of which you would get included in the fee from a decent agent in France. This is what causes some people to come over all indignant at times. However not all agents in France are necessarily very good, so many people think the extra fees are worth it. It's down to the individual really.

The referral agencies can take a lot - 40% of the French agent's commission is not uncommon, not bad for running a web site and advertising in the glossies, though as I said some can be very effective in marketing terms so do earn their fee. Some French agents won't touch them, but most think 60% of a fee is better than no fee at all. There are a few which load their commission by an extra 50% for any clients referred by such an agency, this is of highly dubious legality. These include FNAIM members, so the yellow diamond is not necessarily any indication of competence or fair dealing - there are plenty of good independent agents around.

Valuation of houses is an inexact science, particularly in France where just about every house is different and agents do not have the databases of actual selling prices of similar properties to refer to. Contrary to popular belief, in most cases it is the seller who sets the price, not the agent or notaire, so if there are 'unrealistic expectations' they often rest with the seller rather than the agent or buyer. A good agent will indicate to the buyer if he considers a house is overpriced, or represents good value. They want satisfied clients who will return and recommend them to others, not buyers who feel they have been ripped off.

Finally, Quillan is quite right. Chartered Surveyors as known in Britain do not exist as such in France. There are a few who carry out building surveys mainly on behalf of British buyers (and very good they are too) but an estate agent calling himself that would cause the poseur indicator to go off the scale for those of us who are familiar with the French system. Most first-time overseas French buyers are not familiar with the French system, they expect it to be like in England, and rather than being unwilling to bargain, or having unrealistic expectations, they are prime targets for those prepared to fleece them.

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Will and Quillan, 

The RICS is a worldwide organisation and becoming more global.  It has offices in most countries including France where its members are recognised.  My husband was offered a job by a large French blue chip company.  They advertised for a chartered surveyor because, should litigation arise, you must be chartered to be covered by indemnity insurance.

Estate agents on the other hand do not need to be chartered to carry out their business.  Many of them are however because they receive instructions from banks, building societies and private clients to carry out independent surveys on property.

Demios,  you queried whether this "chartered surveyor" carried out a survey on the op's property.  If he did, his findings would be invalid and, he would be in breach of RICS code of conduct because his involvement would have been a conflict of interest.

In answer to part of the original posters question, there is also an organisation called Chartered Institution of Builders (CIOB).  The members are surveyors and not builders AND, they call themselves chartered.  However, these members lean more towards the construction and quantity surveying side of the profession.  You could, in fact contact these to ascertain whether your "estate agent friend" is a member.  Although what relevence this is to estate agency, God only knows.  Lending institutions only instruct RICS surveyors to carry out mortgage valuations - nobody else.

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Katie

Thanks for the clarification about chartered surveyors.

I was really thinking of how, in the absence of any meaningful qualification in estate agency in Britain, a lot of them give themselves impressive sounding titles like 'surveyor' or 'auctioneer' recalling a time when they got involved in more than just selling houses (and, it must be said, had a rather better reputation). The RICS does of course include estate agents in its membership, but by its own definition these are mostly involved in commercial rather than residential property. The more familiar roles of the chartered surveyor in England, such as structural and valuation surveys on residential property, are seldom undertaken under the French system, and then mostly by non-French buyers who may not understand the difference in the systems. For French lenders the prime consideration is that the borrower can repay the loan, and that the house is insured (so their money is safe if it does fall down); they seem to have little interest in the condition or true value of the house.

I didn't mean to be rude about the few proper building surveyors operating in France, in fact I made a point of praising their professionalism.

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Well Kate I am sorry that I made that error. Can you point me in the direction of any legal case in France where a RCIS member has been involved in a dispute in respect to the purchase of a private dwelling in France and where it clearly states his qualifications are recognised in France. I ask this as in the original post the poster was told that RICS cannot control what people call themselves in France and they have no juristriction here.

I have edited out the first part of my post because I have found out how to locate RICS Property Surveyors in France via their website. They do exist, in fact there are three of them working  in France, one in Harault and the other two in Paris. For those that want to look you can go either through their main website at  http://www.rics.org or direct to the link at http://www.ricsfirms.com sorry about that.

 

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Quillan, sorry, but I cannot point you in the direction of a claim against a MRICS carrying out a mortgage valuation in France other than looking on RICS website.  As Will has already pointed out such surveys do not exist in France.  However, if I were a layman and wanted this done, I would ask the RICS if an appointed members Professional Indemnity Insurance would still be valid should he survey a property in France. 

I must add that considering the RICS's presence in France, and their drive to become more globally recognised that I am somewhat surprised at their flippant attitude to the original poster.

So RICS especially for you.[:@].  In fact I think I will stop paying my large membership fees and call myself MRICS regardless.

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I do sometimes wonder if people have higher expectations when buying in France. In the UK, if you purchased a house and on entering for the 1st time found e.g. the front door did not fit properly then I guess you would read what your surveyor said and see "was not able to check the front door and recommend ..." (not a comment about UK surveyors Katie) and then it would be down to you to sort it out. However, seems that in France UK purchasers can get a bit more upset and start looking for people to blame for the problem (as it is clearly not their fault for not noticing the problem).

I suppose I tend to take the opinion that when buying somewhere there are bound to be some problems that need sorting. I'm sure this is not due to and great deception but that when living somewhere you can easily get used to things that don't work properly. Having lived in properties "under renovation" for many years it surprises me how you can become totally blind to the fact that half the walls are still bare plaster (etc.).

Ian

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[quote user="Deimos"]

 However, seems that in France UK purchasers can get a bit more upset and start looking for people to blame for the problem (as it is clearly not their fault for not noticing the problem).

[/quote]

Now you have unleashed a bee that has been buzzing around in my bonnet for several days...

I am not saying this applies to the originator of this topic, because I do not know the details. But so often people are always looking round to find somebody else - if it is a large faceless organisation so much the better - to blame rather than accept responsibility for getting things wrong. We see it time and time again on France forums (others rather more frequently than this one, it has to be said). If somebody pays over the odds for their house then it is the seller or the agent who misrepresented it rather than them not doing enough research themselves. If they are unable to keep up the payments on a loan then it is the fault of the bank for giving the loan, or more often the fault of the French government for taking too much in the way of cotisations and taxes, rather then their own lack of financial planning. If they find it difficult to travel back to England then it is the fault of the ferry company or airline for imposing 'extortionate' fares rather then their own poor budgeting or under-estimating the number of times they want to travel, and so on ad infinitum.

Anybody can make a mistake, but it seems few can accept responsibility for their own errors. As I said, this is a general observation, not a dig at the originator. It will probably wind up some of the perpetual whingers, but who cares.

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Very true - any honest agent would tell you that the majority of buyers are so willing to believe them that they could tell them any old rubbish. So it is not surprising that the less honest individuals do exactly that.
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Last September we viewed properties with 3 French agents, we did not tell any of them that my OH is a building contractor on purpose. 2 of the agents were honest and didn’t try to cover up things that were obviously wrong with the properties, but the 3rd must have thought we were stupid or blind because everything we saw was overpriced and most of them had structural problems of one sort or another but she never said a thing, according to her they were wonderful!

Chipie

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