Building work started, slowed down, stopped.

[westland]

I know that having building work done, the length of time waiting for devis etc has often been discussed on this forum, but your opinions will hopefully help us to decide what to do next.

I'll keep it as brief as I can viz. July 2005 asked for devis for extension/new fosse/some work in original house using a project management company who have done other work in the village.

Dec 2005 signed devis and gave 10% deposit, work planned for April-July. Planning arrived later than expected and work started in June 2005.  A few week's passed between builders coming and going, but hey it's a small project (28 sq metres).  August came and went, fair enough.  The last time the builders were here was beginning of October and we are told that they are waiting for the placo guy to be available.

To date we have the shell, roof, two of the three windows and the fosse.  Outstanding is placo, knocking through to the main house, electrics, interior plumbing/ sanitary ware and tiling, a window and all shutters, outside rendering of the shell.  We have paid all but the last 6,000 euros as we did agree to pay in advance by instalments.  However looking at the devis I estimate that we are owed about 12,000 euros plus work still and they as they seemed a bit desperate to get hold of the last 5,000 that we paid I am getting a bit worried that they might have a serious cash flow problem. We were instructed to chose tiles and bathroom fittings when we paid the last instalment but on checking with the builders merchants these have still not be ordered.

Thoughts are a) check with placo ourselves that it is because they are busy that we are waiting.

                       b) put something in writing that we are not happy with the progress

                       c) trust that eventually it will all get done

                      or any other ideas that anyone might have.   

Thanks                 

[Benjamin]

d) start kicking, however belatedly, your project management company.

Apart from the fosse, looking at what you've so far got for your money, the cost is about one third of the total but no doubt some of the builders on the forum will be better able to comment on that.

Benjamin

[westland]

Yes, thanks, should have done it sooner really.

[Catalpa]

There's a thread in Legal -

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/801620/ShowPost.aspx

in which I list in absurd detail (discussing our stonemason always brings on a psychotic episode) how we went about getting him to finish work for us. It may help you come to some conclusion as to what steps you will take. Good luck. [:D]

[westland]

Thanks, looks like I'll try sending a recorded letter rather than just keep calling in.  Does anyone know how we stand if the project managers haven't actually been passing on the money to the builders, would we be liable to pay them again? I ask as I have since found out that the window supplier has not yet been paid for work already done.  I have to presume that they don't always use the money we give them on our project and that eventually our work will be finished off with funds coming in from other clients, for those in the business know is this how it works?

[montagrier]

We too know of a project managment co. that really seems to be fleecing people in our area... we have been called in a few times to help out or take over from jobs that seem to have been left.... and each time this company has been involved.

Can I ask what dept you are in?

Monti

[Wozza]

Does anyone know how we stand if the project managers haven't actually been passing on the money to the builders, would we be liable to pay them again? I ask as I have since found out that the window supplier has not yet been paid for work already done.

Presuming that the contract is between the PM Company and the window supplier, you are not liable for any unpaid bills - legally. It has been known for unpaid contractors to reclaim goods (eg the windows), leading to the end client forking out again to keep them. Legally, if they did take the windows back, the PM company would be required to replace them or put the house back to its original condition.

I have to presume that they don't always use the money we give them on our project and that eventually our work will be finished off with funds coming in from other clients, for those in the business know is this how it works?

That's generally exactly how it works in contracting, whatever the industry.

Warren

Edit: Problem with server so quotes wouldn't work, nor would highlighting copied text. Sorry if it isn't clear! Perhaps ISP hasn't been paid????

[westland]

Thanks again for your postings, my daughter phoned the "placo" on our behalf and he hasn't said anything untoward about our PM just that he is finishing another job.  I have sent the letter and asked for a meeeting to discuss progress stating that we need in writing who's arriving next and how long we can expect to wait.  Thanks also for the info re. cash flow,  this helps as I know that there is not enough cash with what we still owe to finish everything on the devis.

[Anton Redman]

<< Does anyone know how we stand if the project managers haven't actually been passing on the money to the builders, would we be liable to pay them again? >>

It depends on exactly what the contract between your project manager and the builders says. The worst case scenario is the builder may have a lien on his or her materials until paid in full.

[Dog]

[quote user="westland"]Thanks, looks like I'll try sending a recorded letter rather than just keep calling in. Does anyone know how we stand if the project managers haven't actually been passing on the money to the builders, would we be liable to pay them again? I ask as I have since found out that the window supplier has not yet been paid for work already done. I have to presume that they don't always use the money we give them on our project and that eventually our work will be finished off with funds coming in from other clients, for those in the business know is this how it works?[/quote]

If the project manager has not been paying the subcontractors you could be in very deep humiliating detrius - YOU COULD END UP PAYING THEM - check with a lawyer - in one way it is a good law as the small tradesmen do not get ripped off - but not very good for you. Paying twice is not funny. You will find that once one tradesman gets a lawyer on the case the lawyer will contact all the other unpaid people and hit you with one big whack.

I have also found that it is in the interests of some companies not to finish the work - you don't pay the last small payment and draw attention to unfinished and bad workmanship - they don't have to pay the insurance for the guarantee and end up well in pocket not having to put shoddy work right and not finishing all the annoying expensive time consuming bits. I can assure you it is extremely difficult to get tradesmen in to finish other peoples bad workmanship.

I can certainly recommend a highly advertised project management company if you enjoy being.... I am probably not allowed to say what I would like to so it seems this company will just carry on in the same way.

Good luck.

[Tomacher]

I too have had problems with my project management company, so much so that I 'fired' them on 27/11/2006.

The company your talking about don't happen to be based in Mauzens et Miremont, Le Bugue (24) do they ?

I would never ever use this particular company again or recommend them to anyone.

They have cost me a fortune ie 3 lengths of laminate work top for my kitchen, UK price £700, project management

companies price (from their supplier) 3334.72 euros ex TVA - they are having a laugh !!!

Anyone thinking of engaging this particular company (English owned & spoken) should think again.

If you are interested in the name of the company send me a private email and I will 'fill you in' which is what I feel

I should have done to them !!

[Ex Forum Admin]

 

PM only please...no naming and shaming on the forum.

[WJT]

I have heard terrible stories about English speaking project managers. . We paid almost a 1000 euros for a survey from an architect with a firm. They gave us a report (after some nagging ) but basically said we need to dig drains and provided a diagram of how it would need to be done but didn't realise that the area was rock not earth. Also said our roof was in very good condition and even pointed out that the black plastic membrane was a good sign. Well, after purchasing the property we have learned that we need to replace the entire roof!  In fact the membrane is not a good thing because it is not allowing it to breath. If we had known this, chances are we would have not proceeded with the sale so feel completely conned.

They sent a few guys out to give us a devis for some work and luckily was about four times the price than the others we received, or else we would have made the big mistake of going with them. This was before we knew about the roof. I have since heard other things about them.  It is very difficult but as hard as it may be I would highly recommend going with someone that comes highly recommended even if it means waiting to find the right recommendation.

As for the OP, I know how stressful it all is, I do hope you get it sorted. I won't go into the problems we had with a French maitre d' oeuvre (French project manager) that tried to rip us off [:@]. But now I am trying to manage it myself, being a girl and all is difficult at the best of times to say the least. [:)] Now doing it,  I cannot imagine leaving it up to someone else here to push these guys because it is an everyday occurrence, I seem to be constantly having to nag them and chase not to mention watching everything they do. In the beginning I was a little hesitant in doing this now I have no problems and the more I call the more they tend to show up. It is very early days so I am keeping fingers crossed that it will be achievable.

 I am also very aware and very careful about paying too much in advance, I will try my best to make sure that the work is always ahead of the money to have some sort of leverage to get them to come back. Having said that so far this has not been an issue, if they were telling me it was necessary, it may be another matter altogether and I may not be able to refuse (but would try [:)]). Another advantage is that I am able to be here while the work is taking place. If not there would have been several things that would have happened that I would have been very unhappy with.

The joys of renovation, the best advice is don't do it! [:-))]

Edit: I felt that I needed to add that a Moderator (with good reason) edited my first sentence because it was a little too descriptive as far as naming and shaming. But the mentioned architect was with an English builders firm, a construction company that advertises on most of the French sites and publications.

[Chris Head]

I must admit to feeling rather sad about the whole thread. Obviously there are always two sides to a story but I wonder how the business people who conduct themselves in the ways described above actually sleep at night?

 I would suggest that anybody reading this who is worried about somebody they're considering employing asks the question on the forum, giving specific areas and who they should steer clear of and why, clearly the reponse should be by PM.

I know it's difficult, at best, to get hold of good artisans but as we're hearing the cost of getting it wrong is obviously high, in monetary and emotional terms. There are sharks out there praying on you lot, protect yourselves a little more and don't worry about asking anything you want to of prospective businesses you might want to employ.If they've nothing to hide they really shouldn't be too worried about being open with you. Get networking y'all and don't be afraid to ask questions.

I'm hoping to have another website up and running next year, with more appropriate, non carving related work on it, I'll be putting contact details of present and past clients as reference for other potential clients, the idea being that it's all open and there's nothing to hide, so folk can either b**ch about me or otherwise. The idea is transparency of me, the way I work and my standard of work. .Perhaps more Artisans could adopt the same approach? 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Chris Head"]

 ...................................... it's all open and there's nothing to hide, so folk can either b**ch about me or otherwise.

[/quote]

Let me know when it's up and running 'cos I like a good b**ch...............................[:)]

 

 

[Valleyboy]

I'll settle for a bad b**ch myself!

[Chris Head]

[quote user="Valleyboy"]I'll settle for a bad b**ch myself![/quote]

As if you didn't have the pick of thousands of baaaaad b**ches where you come from Boyo![:D] Improve your technique!

No problem BB, so long as I can moan about clients too, you wouldn't believe what French clients just painted a pair of barn doors with. They're not paid for yet, I might take them back.

Seriously though, I'm really disappointed for the folk who came out to have a nice life and get caught up in a nightmare, it really can be avoided.

 

[Lizfjr]

If you care to have a look back to about May 2006, and a thread all about SIRET numbers, you will find information on the action I took to recover a deposit I had paid to a company which were supposed to project manage my job, and then did a big fat nothing, but expected to be able to keep my deposit (40%).

An English speaking company which is very active in my region (I live in 89).

Waited 8 months for them to do something and basically took them to court. They paid up just before the hearing (which still went ahead) and I got not only my deposit back, but damages and all my fees.

They have, of course, changed their name and continue to do business. Nothing dodgy there then.

The happy ending for me is that I learnt a valuable lesson, lost no money, and now a house that has been completed by  french company to a lovely standard and with guarantees.

Happy to take PMs if anyone wants further detail. [:)]

[WJT]

Well done Lizfjr! Most people couldn't be bothered taking the likes of your project manager to court because of all the hassle and expense involved. Good for you, not only for recouping your money but perhaps you have given them something to think about before they do it to the next person.[:)] 

[westland]

.

 

Interesting to see a few more postings on this thread.  I think that the above points made by WJT are quite important. We felt that we had done enough research into companies and the one that we are using is French as are the artisans .

      We have always been worried that if we didn't pay in advance the work wouldn't get done, but as it has taken so long anyway it would have been better to try and hold back on some of the payments. We are here permanently, and  I mean that, often not daring to go out just in case they turn up the day or week after they are supposed to do.  I also agree that it is probably better to try and bring the different workers together yourself as then you can "nag" them without having to wait for the project management company to do it.  As WJT says the more you call them the more they tend to show up.  Not really in our nature to do this, but our neighbour did ask us when we discussing not having had the devis "How many times have you called them". Our work was quite complicated so we thought that it would be easier to get someone do sort things out for us.

It has been very stressful and obviously is not over yet.  The builders have finally turned up again (of course just before Christmas) and some electrical work has been done without us being consulted as to where we wanted sockets etc. Our letter asking for a meeting with the PM to outline a timescale for the work has not produced any response so we are pondering whether to follow up on this or to hang on now that things have started to move again.