GAS OR OIL ?

[Jacqui Too]

Hi I would like some info on central heating / boiler running costs I am just about to complete on the purchase of a property near to Perigueux. The house needs  full restoration including a new central heating and domestic hot water system.

This is our first French purchase and would welcome any advice on the comparison between oil and gas running costs

We know that here oil is by far the cheapest (we changed from big static bottled gas to oil some time ago) but I have no idea of the the prices in France

I read in another post that oil is aprox. 0.58 euros compared to 30p ( approx 44 euros) per litre here !

Thanks

Chipie

[Bugsy]

I've ordered 1200 litres today @ 60 cents a litre.

Four years ago we were paying 34 cents a litre.

I blame Bush & Blair...........................

[Afy]

I paid 58 cents a liter as well a few weeks ago, bought 2000 liters..

[Gluestick]

In 90% of all comparisons I researched, oil was cheaper.

Obviously, both oil and gas at present have suffered from short-term profit greed by oil companies.

Over time, this ought to settle down.

In a commodity sense, gas is now an increasingly rarer product, with the two main significant sources left now being Russia and Qatar.

I am betting that gas prices will increase far more than oil (which should shortly stabilise and demonstrate price falls: oil companies and suppliers always rip people off in the Winter, as they know users have no real choice!).

 

[powerdesal]

Of course, if the OP has a choice of gaz de ville its a whole different scenario.

[Gluestick]

Dunno, Steve? [8-)]

Unfortunately, as France only has one sort of resource, which is very flaky - Sonotrac - to rely on, they seem to be on the rack of global market exploitation more than most?

At least with crude, there are a mass of global markets to provide a degree of competition.

I have thought for some time that with only Elf and Total, at least France could better regulate its energy markets more easily: however, the past couple of years has shown that all french product based on crude has suffered from the same insane greed as everyone else.

Funny, for example how British Gas is still increasing its prices: when gas prices on the global markets have dropped so much![6]

 

[Jacqui Too]

Thanks everyone for your time to give some info, we are in a small hamlet so I think there will be little chance of connecting to any form of town gas, I would prefer gas as I would like a gas cooker! Anybody got any prices on gas per litre and what the standing charge for the rent on the big bottle might be?

Thanks

Chipie

[Cassis]

Gas cooker hob and tops - bear in mind that most gas cookers in France are not infinitely adjustable like natural gas cookers in the UK.  Some have a 'low' setting on each ring and although you can adjust between the low and maximum setting, there is a 'step' on the low setting so it is very hard to adjust below that point - presumably a safety feature so that the ring does not blow out on very low settings.   For full adjustability, those who have them say an electric induction hob is better.

[Gluestick]

Most gas cookers use bottles, anyway, although, of course, if you decide on gas and have a large storage tank fitted, you can run your cooker from this. Nothing preventing you from oil heating and bottled gas for cooking.

Ours is pretty well adjustable and runs from a large butane bottle, which lasts for ever and costs circa € 24 for a refill. The once only deposit is also round about the same price.

When you say "Big bottle" what size are you thinking? It is normal to operate heating from a very big storage tank, supplied and fitted by the gas supplier and you only pay an annual rental thereafter.

 

[Jonzjob]

[quote user="Cassis"]Gas cooker hob and tops - bear in mind that most gas cookers in France are not adjustable like natural gas cookers in the UK.  Many have just two settings/power outputs per ring.  They do not have much adjustability.  For adjustability an induction electric cooker hob is better.
[/quote]

Saus, I have to disagree with you on this one. Our gas hob, LPG, has a little knob on the top, for each ring, that you turn and as you turn it the flame gets bigger or littler. The heat changes immediatly, just like it does in the U.K. where we also had LPG for the central heating and cooking.

Ours is the same as ALL of the other gas, LPG or town, hobs anywhere. Here or the U.K. We can also use pans that you can't use on an induction hob, like our mild steel, round bottomed wok. It costs about 1/2 the price, probably much less if you go for a cheaper model, than it would to buy an induction hob. Plus,,,,,,,,,, we can use it when there is a power cut! You can use ceramic pans on gas and we would have been stuffed when our, very expensive, electric kettle broke down 12 months and 1 week after we bought it if we hadn't got our aluminium camping kettle, which would not have worked on an induction thingie. Sorry Saus, but I'm not convinced by induction. It's not even hot [:D].

The French don't seem to go in for gas ovens, which we used to have in England, so you are stuck with an eleky oven here. If you bring one over, then you have to think about what you do if it goes wrong. Nobody here does them..

P.S. We have a 1 tonne gas tank at the back of our house. It wa shere when we moved in so there is no way we will change it. Before we moved over we had a 850 litre tank. We had it installed because we thought it was cleaner than oil. That may have changed, but we are happy with what we have. Cost? It costs what it does. You are nailed to the wall with what ever you choose, where ever you choose it. You pay what they say, or you can always goe cold. That goes for wood too. And as far as wood is concerned, then yes it's miles cheaper than either oil or gas, but it's also going out when it's raining to get more and lighting it or keeping it alight and cleaning ths cynders. Shut up John.

P.P.S. We have a lovely log, open fire. But it would be cold without the LPG fired, low temp, underfloor heating though.

[chris pp]

Our oven, grill and hob are all LPG and fully adjustable, work perfectly and Lynne wouldn't have anything else, best way to cook.

Central heating? If you don't mind the hastle and are in the right parts of France, Wood. It's renewable, should be carbon neutral, local, in our case the garden and not so vulnerable to International supply problems and price fluctuations.

Chris

[Gyn_Paul]

So why are the wood CH boilers SO much more expensive than the oil ones ? It's the only thing which is putting me off including it in the calculations.

p

[powerdesal]

JJ,

I just love your description of how to operate a gas ring [Www]

When did you last have a gas oven go wrong? We have been using an lpg gas range for years and have never had a problem that required outside assistance. There is no routine service requirement and even if there  were, any half way decent gas fitter could do it.

Going outside for wood in the cold makes you plan in advance ( bit like project management  [:)] )

[Cassis]

I should have said "some" rather than "most" gas hobs are not fully adjustable.  Also I didn't explain what I meant very well.  I have amended the original post.

Apologies. [:)]

[Will]

If you are starting from scratch then do consider a heat pump with a geothermal heat source. Its expensive to install of course, but so is any new wet central heating system in France, and won't suit everybody. But if you are looking in the longer term it's excellent, particularly if combined with wood space heating, and with very low running costs.

[Mikey]

wood or wood pellets, wood gasification boilers are economical and the better ones need only 1 or 2 fill ups a day, and if you have a buffer tank you can go a few days without lighting boiler.  http://www.solarenergyireland.com/wood_gasification_boilers.html

if you have a spare acre you could plant fast growing willows for short rotation coppicing, 400 trees should be more than enough to give you a renewable supply for about 30 yrs. Fast growing willow is ready for coppicing after 1st 4-5yrs and thereafter every year, that is if you don't coppice all 400 at once.

willow is easy to cut, easy to plant and if cut in January is ready to use by September.

[Jonzjob]

The gas oven we got about a year before we moved over was a computerised fan assisted LPG jobbie. It wouldn't light until the oven casing was up to the correct air pressure. Amazing to watch the catherine wheel flame in the middle of the fan. It went wrong and when the eng came out to repair it he also fitted a freeby mod. He told us that if we had to pay for it then it would have been £350 worth!!!

I don't think that we will be going for that kind of kit again...

What's project managment? In fact what's project, don't forget I bin retarded, sorry retired for 12 years now![8-)]

[Babbles]

All our plans were thrown out of the window by our builder (who has gives us really good advice so we listen to him! if not necesserily always understand him!!!!) he advised us to have gas with an enormous tank which only cost Euro to install by the gas comany and tied us to a 3 year agreement with an initial fill cost of 1200Euros. Our only issue has been the radiator police told us what size and where we could put our radiators which wasn't always where wanted them but it had to be done or the system wouldn't have been signed off and we wouldn't have been able to buy any gas without the certificate. The also insisted on a larger combi boiler which turned out to still not have enough umph to get the hot water to all the rads so it now needs a bigger pump. Also we were told so I am assuming its true that as of next year you can't have gas bottles inside the house (ie for a cooker) so that migh effect your plans.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Abs Turner"]Also we were told so I am assuming its true that as of next year you can't have gas bottles inside the house (ie for a cooker) so that migh effect your plans.[/quote]

Not seem anything about that but, a cautionary tale. Six years ago when we were house-hunting we visited an outwardly lovely maison de maitre that was owned by an english couple. They had totally ruined it by removing all the 'old' fireplaces and covering the walls with english wallpaper. " You must see the cellar" the owner said. Well, down we went into a beautiful large cellar with original stone wine racks, the lot. But in the corner were three huge gas bottles that they used for cooking. I kind of hoped that he didn't smoke............. I started to explain that gas was heavier than air etc, but it fell on deaf ears, so we left.

[Gluestick]

Goodness knows how many french families and kitchens that's going to affect! Having a butane bottle either at the base of the cooker, or next to it (in a cupboard) seems de rigeure. I've seen quite a few simply standing on the floor alongside the oven, too!

Normally, it's only propane bottles that must be outside.

One wonders whether this is yet another french old wive's rumour-mill tales?

 

[Bugsy]

I think it was probably a small paragraph it the white paper advising that the whole of France would be on mains sewage by 2004.

[Will]

Butane cannot be stored outside in winter because of its freezing point. Only propane, as Gluestick says.

[Gyn_Paul]

If there was to be some regulation (yeah, THANKS, Brussells !) forbiding gas bottles used/stored inside the house,  it would also affect the hundreds of thousands of mobile room heaters.

Also it would be virtually inpossible to police, so I would imagine it would be like much of the EU regulation with which France doesn't agree: enthusiastically signed up to in principle, then totally ignored in practice.

For instance, you won't have seen a dog in a restaurant (on a chair even) since the regulations were introduced 5 years ago, would you ?

p

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="Gary aka Bugbear"]I think it was probably a small paragraph it the white paper advising that the whole of France would be on mains sewage by 2004.[/quote]

Had your letter from SPANC yet ? note the date for completion is Dec 2005!

p

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="Will "]Butane cannot be stored outside in winter because of its freezing point. Only propane, as Gluestick says.[/quote]

Storing it outside isn't a problem; it's just using it !

p