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Electrical installation standards in old houses


BobDee
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There are numerous postings re the correct way to carry out new electrical installations, but where does the law stand re older houses? We have just moved into a 25 year old house in 47 and I am quite appalled at the standards of the electrical system. We have blue wires on most of the earth connections in the power points and most of the house has power sockets under each lighting switch, even in the bathroom. I have to assume that when the house was built, all these vagouries were accepted by the authorities at the time. 

My question is, if I make changes to the wiring system and do it to the original standards, who is going to say it is unsafe? Also, if I use the dreaded twin and earth cable to extend a power spur, how that be unsafe when the original wiring would in no way meet a modern new installation inspection?

I know that there are mutterrings about house insurance claims not being met if wiring standards are not adhered to, but an extension of that argument would be that all older houses are uninsurable.

My gut feeling is that if you do carry out work that is not to current French standards but is 100% safe following the usual common sense laws, ( I am an electronics engineer by profession), then there is not a lot to worry about.

Any comments out there?

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For what it is worth I think it is likely that within ten years there will be some form of compulsary inspection of wiring when properties are sold. If by 'dreaded twin and earth' you mean UK standard as used for ring mains with a smaller core for the earth wire which is only insulated by an outer sheeth then it will raised all sorts of other issues about the house wiring when the chauvanist comes to inspect.  

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It's a good question, Bob.  In utter despair of a similar situation when we bought here, we got a French electrician to completely re-wire the place.  Ultimately, as these rules are likely to come in, I would personally get it up to French standard.  Otherwise, you may well be in the position of having to do the whole thing again which could cost you more in the long run.  But then, I am no electrician!
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BobDee,

"usual common sense laws" are irrelevent, its the normes that matter. If your wiring is subject to an official inspection in the future and it is not to French standards it will be condemned. I suspect that not only would you be uninsured but that EDF may cut off supply until a satisfactory inspection - I cant confirm the latter.

Whether older French properties are "technically" uninsurable is rather academic if its your personal claim which is being kicked back.

From your description of the present system I would suggest a total rewire, either by you if you are capable (as you probably are) or by an artisan. Either way, do it in accordance with the French standards and sleep easier at night.

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Bob,

We are in exactly the same position (I was even an Electronics / Radiocomms Engineer!).  Old French Farmhouses with 3 phase power, all cobbled together with not a thought for safety, its a good job EDF fit their disjoncteur - albeit 500mA.  I'm told France is not bad compared to the likes of Spain.  The new standards though are very good, better I think in many areas than the OTT British ones.

As an Electronics Engineer, you will be fully aware of the dangers (electrocution and fire) and for piece of mind, get it sorted.  Start with a new Distribution board and slowly work your way through the mess, the use of spurs make this much easier than UK ring mains.  I still cant believe where I've found unprotected live wires : in the garden, previous owners must have had the standard lamp there and just removed it, did not disconnect the power; in the attic, old wiring just coiled up with a light fitting and bulb on the end buried under glass fibre insulation; old cloth covered ali wires, still live, not going anywhere.  the list goes on, but those 3 are the worst, and most worrying.  I understand it is still OK for you to DIY the wiring (not as in the UK), but those draconian rules will come and a Certificate of Conformity will be required for a property sale, 10 years was suggested  in the previous post??

BTW - dont use the UK T&E as it is illegal in France, the earth conductor must be insulated and the same size as the line and neutral.  The wires are the cheap bits, its not worth it!
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Although I have now rewired two houses in France to French

standards of safety, which included replacing the consumer unit, fitting RCD's

on all circuits and installing a proper low resistance earth spike. I haven't

felt inclined to fit the required numbers of sockets etc.. so it wasn't

possible to have it all checked properly.

I am an ex electronics fitter and after much reading have a good grasp of the

French Normes but I would be inclined nowadays to have the work inspected or

done by a proper registered electrician. The regulations in UK are now very

stringent and I would assume that it won't be long before France moves in the

same direction.

One other bit of advice I would give to anyone doing an old house is to fit

surface mount trunking wherever possible. It makes servicing and modifications

much easier and also avoids having to conform to the Normes with respect to

where you are allowed to channel out the masonry. The only thing is that you

will need to shop around as the prices can vary quite a lot.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]I don't know which route you will choose to go down, but our entire job cost 3,600 euros for a total re-wire (including the phones). 6 main rooms, kitchen and bathroom, plus garage - we have electric central heating too.  I thought that wasn't bad for the peace of mind it brought.[/quote]

I am sure you have done the right thing. When you go to sell your property. It will be much easier to explain what has been done.

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[quote user="fulcrum"][quote user="cooperlola"]I don't know which route you will choose to go down, but our entire job cost 3,600 euros for a total re-wire (including the phones). 6 main rooms, kitchen and bathroom, plus garage - we have electric central heating too.  I thought that wasn't bad for the peace of mind it brought.[/quote]

I am sure you have done the right thing. When you go to sell your property. It will be much easier to explain what has been done.
[/quote]Quite.

My favorite bit (pre re-wire) was the oven.  The previous owner had spliced the cable and taped it to another bit with a standard plug on it then just stuck it in a socket.  Oh, and the fact that the system wasn't earthed anywhere... and the live wires just cut and left bare in the loft... and...and...  I learnt a lot of new French swear words while Daniel was here fettling it![:-))]

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It is already a requirement in may locality to have an electrical inspection when selling a property, this will outline all non conformities to current normes and may be used by the seller to reduce the price just as a survey would in the UK.

My property has wiring dating back 80 years, it has all the defects mentioned above and plenty more, shellac insulated wires in lead conduits, non existant earthing and reversed polarity (and that was on the part rewired in the last 10 years by a proffessional!).

When I bought the property it had been abandoned for years and I also thought that EDF would refuse to reconnect it but no!

It cost about 15 euros for the reconnection, he set the disjoncteur and put lead seals on it and everything upstream of it, he left it disconnected and wished me good luck as I would need it!

So to sum up, the wiring downstream of  the EDF disjoncteur is down to you and can be in whatever condition you are happy to risk, but that changes (around here anyway) when you come to sell.

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We have a similar situation.

French electricity is fr cleverer than the UK equivalent, it tends to find its way despite the wiring rather than because of it! (Well in our house at least)

We have made safe a few areas that were frankly ridiculous and our intention it to rewire however I am building so many walls etc. w rent really ready for Monsieur Le Sparks just yet.

Fortunately my brother worked as an electrician on Eurodisney so knows how to do a Proper French Mickey Mouse job!

Our intention is to carcasse the services work ourselves (I was a plumbist in a previous life) then get French artisans in to terminate test and inspect.

This way they get a clear run at the work and we terminate the old services after the new is commissioned and fully legal.

We are keen to give the French our business however we want where possible to save money.

Gobsmacked at Cooperlolas prices though, that is so cheap its silly maybe get the chaps details for our scheme?

 

 

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He is a mate, but I can e-mail you a copy of the bill if you like, then you can get a better view of what was involved.  But no using him until he's finished the plumbing in my loft!!![:)] He is a properly qualified and registered electrician and plumber in case this makes him sound like a cowboy - which he is not!
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Well that seems to have some very interesting comments. Many thanks for the really useful responses.

The most important consideration is safety and that IMHO, supercedes adherance to current standards unless:

a) You are doing a complete new work task that entails EDF inspection or

b) You face the possibility of the wiring being inspected on selling your home.

If you are sufficiently experienced or qualified you should be able to determine if your wiring installation is safe. Using blue wires on earth connections is not unsafe if it is correctly grounded at some point to the common property earth. In my case, the blue earth wiring is quite recent;  done professionally about ten years back we are told. Certainly not to current standards, but not likely to cause any problems to the house or its occupants. Much of the lighting cicuitry is devoid of earth connections as it has to be said, are  probably the majority of UK house wiring installations. No UK electricity board is going to cut people off in this case and I'm pretty sure EDF wont go around disconnecting the probably 75% of french homes, that are deficient in this respect. 

Of course some property surveyer will, as has been pointed out, try and force the price down if they find such anomolies, again just the same as in the UK. Not too many surveyors though, start taking power sockets apart to check the wiring colours used.

I am about to add power to a cellar we have here. I will probably use materials at hand, which means UK sourced twin and earth cable. It will be done to professional standards and will be safe. I will use French sockets, which by the way are not a patch on UK 13A from a safety point of view. The installation will include a workbench festooned with 13A sockets to suit the large amount of UK electronic equipment I have.

The bottom line, in my opinion,  then,  is that if your French wiring installation is SAFE, then there is no point in spending thousands of Euros on a rewire. If you are not sure whether it is safe, then certainly get it looked at, but preferably not by an "Artisan" looking for work.

Its always worth remembering the old dodge of grabbing a battery radio; tune it to the Medium wave and to a point on the dial where no station can be heard and then wander round the house with all appliances switched on. If you come to a point where there is a very loud buzzing, you have a bad connection that is sparking and could cause a fire. That is UNSAFE wiring!

Regs

 

BobDee   

 l   

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I agree with all that you have said Bob but why do you want to us T + E cable? After all unless you have several KM in stock you are going to have to go out of your way to use (source) it.

It is also the signature of someone who either cannot be bothered or is incapable of understanding any other sytem than the one they knew when they trained and still feel comfortable with.

I really feel that this decision may come back and bite you some day in the future whether it be the unforeseen sale of the house or an insurance claim.

Try using the French system, there are as many good things as bad that can be said about it as good ones but at least you will be in an educated position to judge it, believe me there is no substitute for actually installing and using the system. My opinion is that the placo backboxes do not give enough surface area on the mounting flange and locating lugs (by comparison to the UK type) and unless installed with precision run the risk of pulling out or being pushed through the placo, that aside the cabling and tableau are superior to the UK standards.

I really don't want to group you with the British  non registered plumber/electrician in these parts whose claim to fame is that he has persuaded local (noire) electricians to use ring mains and T+E cabling, I know two or more families that are having to pay out for complete rewires after his works. 

I also retain Uk plugs on all my tools as I use them when I return to the UK, my compromise is to mount UK 4 gang trailing leads above the workbench connected to the french socket with a french plug, I have UK extension leads again with french plugs and also have at the last count (god only knows where they all get to) about 15 french to UK plug adaptors which can be bought very cheaply from CPC, they come with an American to UK adaptor which if anyone needs some I have surplus to requirements.

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Hi All,

I really dont have any anti French wiring hangups, but the french permanent wiring seems either to be separate wires in plastic trunking or semi flexible three core that seems vastly over rated for lighting circuits.

My knowledge of French electrical practices is really poor having been here just 4 weeks. Pse advise if there is an alternative to the above that makes for an easier installation.

Also, while I think of it, what purpose does the Relais Pilote serve on the main distribution board?

Again, not really quarelling with French standards but UK twin and earth is three conductors in a plastic covering, just the same as the French.  Admittedly the earth core does not have a separate plastic sheath around it, but it is the same as the French three core, i.e. three metal wires in a plastic covering. Both types are still vulnerable to a nail being driven in to the cable with identical results. The argument that the French earth wire has to be the same size as the live and neutral  conductor seems a bit fatuous given that any current, large or small, in the earth wire will cause the Earth leakage detector to trip, so the need to shunt high currents to ground seems not to exist.

Of course anything I do is for my personal use and never would I try to impose my half baked logic on any one else but  I sort of get annoyed at "standards" and the folk that enforce them without any regard to the practicalities and the real electrical world.

We came over here with a dozen UK to Euro adaptors ( Yes from CPC) and gradually they are getting to be redundant as we change to French plugs.

Too many UK attitudes at the moment. We need to get some French service in and adapt!

Bobdee

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Maybe I am too relaxed about the state of house electrics but I also live in a house that does not comply to "the norms". For example, the supply cable from EDF branches to two different fuse boxes (which is against the norms), some 16A sockets are protected by a 10A fuse, in one place two cables are clipped to the side of a ceiling beam (no gain nor double insulation, but no rodent would get at them and they are clearly visible), etc.. However I tend to take the practical approach in that basic safety stuff is present (e.g. RCB, etc.) and the house has not burnt down over the many years the wiring has been in the "non conforming" state.

I have no intention of re-wiring the house to comply with the "current norms" (note "current" as I believe they do change on occasions). New work or changes I have done do comply, but I'm not going to go back and retrospectively change everything that has already proved safe over a long period of time.

Sure it could be better but the RCB and similar gives a reasonable degree of protection. I have always considered it an aspect of living in older houses that some bits of them are not using latest everything and that if you want everything to the latest standards then a new build is more appropriate.

What is probably needed for many people is for a professional to be able to give a balanced opinion about safety rather than conforming to "norms". I guess this is not possible for most professionals as there must be some degree of liability for advice given. True that some things can be dangerous so I would never suggest that everything be totally ignored - just old houses will probably not conform to the latest norms.

Ian

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I'm interested in the statement that " the supply cable from EDF branches to two different fuseboxes which is against the norms".

I have done this, branching at the terminals AFTER the EDF 500mA disjoncteur, and run 3 cables, LNE, through a 30mm gaine into the barn conversion area, supplying a seperate distribution board, (after much puzzling as to how to run the myriad of wires I'd need if I did it all from the original board, a total of over THIRTY sets of LNE, if I included outside lighting, power and lighting to the other attached barn, washer, tumble drier, American fridge, boiler etc etc.).

My plumber/electrician has seen and approved of it. My TWO books on french wiring both show how to wire a garage, and BOTH show a seperate distribution board with an RCD and MCB's, fed from the mains.

How is that different to what I have done?

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[quote user="Ford Anglia"]

I'm interested in the statement that " the supply cable from EDF branches to two different fuseboxes which is against the norms".

[/quote]

The cable from my EDF 500mA disjoncteur ("theirs") goes into a grey box ("mine") with large dominoes from where a cable runs to the house fuse box and another the a fuse box at the central heating boiler. When I had an electrician round the other day to quote for some work he commented that it should be changed at the same time as the EDF cable cannot branch but should go directly into a disjoncteur (or something from which it can the go off to the different places (each with it's own isolator switch). He was not after work and was actually trying to avoid as much as possible !!. Thus my comment about the EDF cable branching was based on what he had said (despite his trying to do as little as possible).

Ian

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Bob,

We are of like minds, although I would have perhaps not written it down (don't le the IEE catch  you!).  Yes, if you are of suitable education and are in a position to make a sound judgement on whats safe and whats not, then go for it. Standards, Rules and  Regs are only there for (I may get in trouble for this) people who cannot make sound judgements and of course to make everthing equal so that the likes of the insurance companies can make their own judgements.  An  Electrical Fitter, may call himself an Engineer, but  in the true sense of the title he/she is not, he /she is a Fitter working to the common standards laid down by the committees and written in the first place by the Engineers - the likes of you and me who understand the detail, not just its got to be green/ yellow of this that size etc because it says so.

However, that said, I would (and urgh you to) always use the standards applicabile in the Country.  At the very least, it gives you peace of mind and saves silly arguments with all those annoying Fitters who dont know a I 2 R from a P/R!

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Yes, if you are of suitable education and are in a position to make a

sound judgement on whats safe and whats not, then go for it.

Unfortunately its the "rules" that the insurance companies go by. No matter how technically competent or qualified you (or I ) may be, if there is an 'incident' and you have not followed the rules irrespective of how strange, nonsensical or irrelevent you may consider them to be you will not be paid out by the insurance company or you will be considered liable etc. Thats life.

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[quote user="powerdesal"]Yes, if you are of suitable education and are in a position to make a

sound judgement on whats safe and whats not, then go for it.

Unfortunately its the "rules" that the insurance companies go by. No matter how technically competent or qualified you (or I ) may be, if there is an 'incident' and you have not followed the rules irrespective of how strange, nonsensical or irrelevent you may consider them to be you will not be paid out by the insurance company or you will be considered liable etc. Thats life.

[/quote]

Agreed

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Sorry, I just cant let that go. Lets say, Heaven forbid, that there is a fire. Along come the insurance company, and as is their wont, they will try and prove that the homeowner was negligent in some way. By negligent, they surely have to prove a dangerous installation. If they find a blue wire on earth terminals, they will surely not say HO HO, you have sinned mightily by not having your house rewired to the latest standard. If on the other hand they found a thin lighting flex powering an electric fire, then they would have every right to blame the owner and not pay out. An installation that did not meet current standards and cannot be proven to be unsafe can surely never be a reason not to pay out. It would also be difficult to prove who did what to the house and at what time. If I take it into my head to use blue earth wires tomorrow in wiring out my cellar how can that be a sin given the preponderance of such arrangements in the house as it currently exists?

Love

BobDee

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Deimos"][quote user="Ford Anglia"]

I'm interested in the statement that " the supply cable from EDF branches to two different fuseboxes which is against the norms".

[/quote]

The cable from my EDF 500mA disjoncteur ("theirs") goes into a grey box ("mine") with large dominoes from where a cable runs to the house fuse box and another the a fuse box at the central heating boiler. When I had an electrician round the other day to quote for some work he commented that it should be changed at the same time as the EDF cable cannot branch but should go directly into a disjoncteur (or something from which it can the go off to the different places (each with it's own isolator switch). He was not after work and was actually trying to avoid as much as possible !!. Thus my comment about the EDF cable branching was based on what he had said (despite his trying to do as little as possible).

Ian

[/quote]

Hmmmmmm.

And yet my electrician, albeit seeing me with his plumber's hat on, when shown my installation, commented that it was a good idea.

Oh well, it works, it's saved me some money and time, and until someone from EDF tells me it's wrong, or poits to the actual passage in the normes, it stays.

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BobDee,

As you quite rightly say, an insurance company will (generally) try to find a reason not to pay out. Unfortunately they hold all the cards. If they find that the fire had an electrical cause and that the house wiring does not meet the regulations, they will probably not pay out, even if the system is / was technically safe. Apart from the fact that you would probably have to lie and say that you had done no modifications to the wiring and that you had no idea that the existing was not to spec, what exactly are going to do to persuade them to pay?.

They may not have the moral right to refuse but I am sure they would have the legal right to do so.

I am equally sure that, were they to learn (how?) that you knew the wiring was not in accordance with current regulations, they w ould expect you to have rectified the situation.

As far as I know (I may be wrong) the wiring regs are a matter of law, not choice, hence you would, by any measure, be illegal. Is it really worth the risk?

Obviously the choice, at the end of the day, is yours and yours alone.

My personal view is that its not worth the stand. Best of luck to you.

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I personally know of one claim for fire damage (emanating form an old electrical installation) that was refused when the assessor found UK 3 pin sockets and T+E wiring in another, completely seperate and unrelated part of the electrical system. The householder tried to argue the case but just got a brick wall and didn't have the money or time to start a legal challenge.

Whilst I might agree with the sentiment "surely they must" etc etc I find usually that I have to forget my UK sense of right and wrong and go by what happens here, the common factor of course is that insurers in both countries will try to get out of a claim if they will not get bad publicity by doing so.

I really dont think that it is worth the risk as far as insurance is concerned and also if you may have to sell your house at some time in the future, in my area we already have to have an electrical inspection together with amient and plomb.

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