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Architects, Artisans and Fosse septic installation


Stefan
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How liable is an architect for the poor installation of a new septic tank system?

 

We have just had a new  (plastic) Fosse septic installed as part of a completely new domestic drainage system.  On paper the job appeared easy, the Architect and aritisan had a completely virgin site to work with and had a free hand over the positioning of the various components.  The tank was installed and covered over about two months ago. Sadly for the Artisan, fortunately for us, it became apparent after a few days that the installation was leaking and the upper part of the tank had to be uncovered.  The leak was fixed but whilst the tank was uncovered it became obvious that it had not been installed with any great care. It's not  horizontal and also seems to have been distorted during the installation ( such that the two inspection covers no longer fit properly). It pretty much seems the Artisan and his subcontractor rushed to get the tank in (and covered) without taking due care. As an aside the Artisan also neglected to install any ventilation for the tank - that is now in hand but it's an indication of the level of competence of the Artisan.

 

Now the blame game starts. At best the artisan didn't know what he was doing, at worse he was careless, In our opinion he knew he had stuffed up and tried to hide his mistakes.  The Achitect has finally conceded that something is amiss but is claiming that the local drainage inspector (we've had three look at the work at various stages) was responsible for spotting errors in the installation and that he, the architect, is merely responsible for communication on the matter......basically everyone is blaming everyone else.  Given that the Architect had a free hand to design and build the system and the Artisan had a green field site to work on we are not prepared to accept a "bodge", in our opinion there really should be no excuses for getting a brand new installation so badly wrong. We are of the opinion that at the very least the tank needs completeley exposing, inspecting, leveling and even possibly replacing if it is damaged, Artisan/Architect will no doubt try for a lower cost solution ( bodge).

 

We have a thousand questions...however I guess we first need to know how hard we can push this under consumer/liability laws, even as far as getting Artisan/Architect to pay for a replacement tank.  Also has anyone else here experienced similar problems?

 

Rgds

Stefan (09)

   

 

      

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Hi Stefan

What a nightmare!

After a life time of working with architects I have discovered that they are responsible for absolutely nothing, it is always someone else's fault, even some of their own appalling designs. For every Norman Foster there are 999,999 who are unemployable and NF probably does not do fosses.

Firstly I cannot understand why plastic was used and not precast concrete, unless of course there is some regulatory procedure involved with the DDE. Secondly a maitre d'oeuvre would be more competent to overlook the installation of a fosse, which is hardly rocket science.

I hope that the artisan and architect remain unpaid for their works, any work, because resorting to the law for reimboursement in France is a long and costly procedure.

Rgds

Wilko

 

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Hi

If the concrete foundation it sits on is not level, then the tank wont be either, maybe thats one cause, and then needs to be dugout and levelled. But you indicate they have squashed it somehow so the circular opening is now distorted, signs of being quickly and badly backfilled.

As to liability, my comment would be the same as other reply, if you have not paid don't, and let them sort it out between them

 

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tj/wilko

 

Thanks for the prompt replies.  Firstly, sorry I got the terminology wrong, the work was indeed done/supervised by a maitre d'ouvre.

We didn't see the need/requirement  for a concrete base( umm..), the tank is a bog standard (!!) fosse septic produced by Sotralentz. and there is no mention of a base in their paperwork, they claim the tank should simply be backfilled with sand.  We get the very definite impression the guy rushed the job, backfilled with sharp sand or gravel using a digger, which is when the distortion occcured. Don't worry, we haven't paid him yet, but we may need to up the ante with the Architect, hence the original question.

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[quote user="Stefan"]

tj/wilko

 

Thanks for the prompt replies.  Firstly, sorry I got the terminology wrong, the work was indeed done/supervised by a maitre d'ouvre.

We didn't see the need/requirement  for a concrete base( umm..), the tank is a bog standard (!!) fosse septic produced by Sotralentz. and there is no mention of a base in their paperwork, they claim the tank should simply be backfilled with sand.  We get the very definite impression the guy rushed the job, backfilled with sharp sand or gravel using a digger, which is when the distortion occcured. Don't worry, we haven't paid him yet, but we may need to up the ante with the Architect, hence the original question.

[/quote]

I guess they were a little aggressive with the digger ! but having seen the distortion at the time it should have been put right. The project manager is responsible at the end of the day, to properly complete his agreement with you he needs to have the sub contractors complete the work to a satifactory standard.

As to the concrete base, in this world of easy this, easy that, manufacturers want things to sound simple to attract the DIYers, thats not to say the tank cannot be installed directly, but by the same token takes no account of the ground where it is to be installed or the problems of levelling.

Myself I would have at the very least had some kind of base, compacted ground etc, who's to say how far it may dissappear into the ground over time :) I joking in a sense, but you understand my point?

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hi

      ok cannot see how the tank got passed inspection without having a vent ???? here in 79 they will fail if it`s not got the right fitting on the top???

               your tank does not need a concrete base unless the soil is really unstable , question did he fill the tank before back filling ???? if not this will give you the problems you have got.

                               dave

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Stefan Its allso [crucial that the fosse is filled with water] and sitting on a stable preferably drylean/concrete base before backfilling around it with ballast. as per manufactures instructions.If that was not done pay nothing until its been taken out and fitted correctly,and i doubt that it could be removed now without bu......ing it completly.Sad news indeed.Michael. 
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we have just applied to have a new fosse and have had the initial visit from the chap from the syndicat des eaux.  from what he tells me, i gather that he will produce the specs for the fosse and that he will expect it to be built to the appropriate requirements.  he will also be visiting on 3 unannounced occasions to inspect the works as they progress

as both my french and my technical knowledge of fosses are, at best, elementary, i am going to appoint a recommended contractor to carry out the work and i am told that he and the syndicat des eaux will be in close consultation with each other

i am lucky in that my husband is a chartered building surveyor and he has had recent experience of the installation of septic tanks to eu requirements.  he knows about distances from boundaries and trees and anaerobic action in the tanks, etc - all above my head but i am, of course, as anxious as anyone else that all goes well.

i would say that all 3 parties, the installer, the overseer (architect) and the syndicat des eaux have a responsibility, but i also know that at the end of the day, it would be the architect who is, if you like, most responsible as he is in overall supervision. if my husband designs a project and supervises it, he would obviously have professional indemnity insurance to cover the project and would expect to be responsible for completion to the required standard unless the client has specifically opted to adopt responsibility for all or part of the project

that is, of course, the theory of how things should be but the reality of getting your problem sorted out might deviate somewhat from the theory!

you might have recourse to the architect's professional regulatory body (french equivalent of riba?) so that might be worth a try

hope that helps.  good luck, you'll need it!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks again to everyone for their continued input.

 

We are slowly winning this battle of attrition. However as well as the issue of the tank itself  we are still fighting with the the artisan over the odour problems. IMHO he is determined to try and solve the problem of smells in the house or at the tank by bodging and messing around with various bits of plastic,  rather than taking it "on the chin" so to speak and installing the fully independent vent pipe that should run from the tank to a stack pipe at the house (as was drawn on the installation instructions he didn't bother to read).

 

I feel we need to hit both Artisan and Architect with the current "norms", does anyone know if the current regs are available on line?

Rgds

Stefan (09)

 

BTW, do the French have a word for "bodge"?

 

   

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  • 5 months later...

Ladies and Gentlemen..Since you were all kind enough to reply to me last year I thought it would be polite to provide an update.

Through late summer the artisan continued to try to "bodge" repairs to the tank and the archtitect continued to prevaricate.  In the spirit of being suitably British and nonconfrontational we tried lots of 'pleases' and "thankyou's" but eventually patience ran out and we finally spent some time drafting a suitably polite but pointed letter to our Architect - and it seemed to have the desired effect.  Late last Year the work was examined by a representative of the Septic Tank Company and in his opinion the tank had been installed incorrectly.  The Architect agreed to cordinate remedial work with the artisan -  at which point he (the artisan) refused to do any further work for us and walked off the site in January claiming we were messing him around.....causing him delay ...project taking too long, etc, etc - strangely enough we were forever waiting for him to turn up....

Thankfully the Architect had seen this coming and another builder up his sleeve, so overall the project is not delayed  - though our next problem will be getting the original artisan to cough up for the remedial work....ho hum.  

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that is progress of some sort.  getting the money back from the original contractor will undoubtedly present some difficulty but, as the lesser of two evils, a lighter wallet is preferable to a "pongy" tank (as confucious MIGHT have said)

all the best

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