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Suitable water pump cont'd....


Chris Head
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Ok the hole is in...what a blast! It's 2,20m x 2,20m x 1,65m deep and bulked out to about 13m3 of waste in the end.  It's amazing how, when the going gets tough everybody disappears!

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/chrishead/DSC01423.jpg[/IMG]

The next stage is the shuttering and concreting. I'm OK with the construction of the shuttering and inserting the re-inforcing but what order do I do it in? Put the floor in first then the walls? Would I get a watertight seal if I pour fresh concrete onto already set concrete? I have an area in the barn to concrete and was hoping that the same mix would suffice for the rainwater tank, the farmer says definately not, I'm not sure.

Questions questions!

Thanks.

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If yu think about it for a tad, Chris, if you pour the floor first or the walls, you are still going to be left with a green-to-sloppy concrete line.

Ergo, it doesn't actually matter, as you seal the edges with a distinct spread all along the join later on.

Mix: stick to swimming pool construction. In this case I seem to recall you have to render the surface with waterproof cement render once the walls and bottom have gone off.

Where is the take-out pipe going?

What are you planning to use for the roof (cover)?

Where is the feed pipe/s going in?

I feel these should be set in before you start pouring muck.

Just my twopennorth.

BTW, did you go that deep when you were instructed to "Dig In"? [;-)][blink]

 

 

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It hadn't even occured to me to render with waterproof cement...that saves a load of work!

The lid will be cast in three sections with an access portal and sat on top of the tank. The tank will then be covered with a plastic sheet and the surrounding earth with capillary matting and then bark chipped.

Feedpipe will go in one side and overflow on the opposite side, straight into the road drain.

I'll post sketches of pipework and irrigation layout when I'm more sure of the garden layout.

Thanks for the help, this is a great learning curve!

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Chris

I think I'd be inclined to bury a ready made tank, even if you have to alter the hole a bit. - Think 'septic tank'!

The common method of construction of tanks at home is by use of concrete rings - clearly not appropriate in your case, but you could use hollow concrete blocks on your floor slab, rendered as suggested before.

Good luck, Peter

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Your hole reminds of some pain..............

In one of my garage premises, we built a large inspection pit: 15 feet long (at least!) 2-3 feet wide and over six feet deep. Through heavy clay soil and all done by hand, between two of us, mainly, between working!

All shuttered and poured and then rendered with waterproof cement, to keep damp out, in this case, as the water table was high.

They don't have pits now, but for certain jobs they are superior to ramps. Which is probably why they are still used in manufacturing plants.

One other point, Chris, what arrangments are you making for the water pick up (for the lift/pressure pump)?

I would probably sink a small sump as the pick up point and cover this with a removable steel mesh filter, to stop the ingestion of annoying particles. At least the sump could then be cleaned out as necessary.

I think you need to source and chose your pump pretty quickly, now, as some will need to run submersed and some will run happily on the surface. If  you use a surface pump, then you need to consider the intake pipe, as you can install a rigid pipe during the build.

If, on the other hand you intend to run a submersible, then you have to make advance plans for its pipework and power feed.

 

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Chris

I've read both threads through again, and reviewing your original requirments I concluded that it needs to be simple, so:

  1. Drop a plastic tank in the hole with provision for in inlet and overflow pipe.
  2. Put in an electric supply to a switched cable ending in a waterproof socket - switch either by the tank or at a suitable remote location.
  3. Drop a 15 or 22mm pipe into the tank, connected to a tap above ground, and the other end will go on the pump.
  4. Drop a submersible pump into the tank, with a float switch, so it will shut off if the water runs out. Probably a small Guinard stainless steel borehole pump, as it will develop better pressure.
  5. Connect your trickle hoses to the tap.
  6. Switch on!
  7. For added luxury, put a timer on the system - Hozelock or Gardena do them, but a simple timeswitch would do.
  8. If you want the water feature, use a separate cheap submersible - the 19 euro version I mentioned earlier.

I found that the pressure reducer supplied with the Hozelock trickle systems needs to be chucked away - it all works very well on mains pressure!

Bon courage, Peter

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OK, thanks again Gluestick and Oliveau....I think the landscape plan is all sort of falling into place now.

I've found a pump I think is powerful enough .http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cs305s-11-2in-stainless-steel-sub-pump/path/submersible-pumps-clean-water/brand/clarke

As suggested, connected to a tap, then a main feed hose buried and run to three sunken connection terminals in the garden... to which various watering appliances can be connected. From the main feed I'll need to branch four seperate trickle systems underneath capillary matting/bark chip switched seperately from the main feed.

The main water feature I think is going to have to be treated seperately.

A plastic water tank isn't an option, the mission statement called for concrete and concrete there shall be!

I know this all seems a bit over the top but it's really important, my habitat is outside and it's like creating a huge room that I've got to look at and live with every day.

Thanks again for the help, I've learned loads already!

 

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Chris:

Had a look at the pump. No mention of working pressure??

It just so happens I have a copy of Machine mart's current mini-catalogue in my sticky hands!

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cbm130ss-1in-stainless-steel-booster-pum/path/booster-centrifugal-pumps/brand/clarke

Probably the above type is what you really need.

Models range from CPE100TF @ £ 152.73 inc VAT, to the one I've listed above at £ 305.48.

Ooops! That's Sarah's SMEG range cooker out, then!

Do you really need 300 litres per minute delivery?

More thought needed here............[8-)]

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[quote user="Chris Head"]

I've found a pump I think is powerful enough .http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cs305s-11-2in-stainless-steel-sub-pump/path/submersible-pumps-clean-water/brand/clarke

 

[/quote]

 

Chris

A silly question - Why faff about bringing a pump from UK when the Brico shelves are full of them here? At least if it goes wrong you haven't got to take it back to Blighty. Most of the pumps [UK & France] are Italian anyway!

Peter

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You're right Peter.

Sod the Smeg Gluestick...I've racked up major brownie points recently, cookers are no way as important as us boys and our projects!

Just finished a three story treehouse for the boys which is really well camouflaged in an old Apple...so they can do the digging for the pipework! Ain't this a great life?

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Hi Chris

I think that the guys that have suggested plastic tanks, or even something like a pool liner are on the right track.

When the tank is full what is the weight of the water plus the reinforced concrete tank ? the weight might well cause subsidence which might cause the concrete to crack/break

Worst case scenario: you build it, fill it with water and then discover 1 a leak or/and 2 the concrete is broken. Imagine the work to remove all the reinforced concrete.

Just a thought !

Rgds

Wilko

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Concrete walls tend to be a wee bit thicker than plastic tank walls, Wilko.

The weight of the water should be the same, surely: unless water contained in a plastic tank is lighter than that in a concrete tank? So why won't the plastic tank collapse and subside into the sub-soil if it's buried too?

So why don't swimming pools collapse, subside and break then?

Just remember that a full tank will exert sideways pressure against the ground on all four sides. (To a degree as first law of hydraulics, all fluids are basically uncompressable. OK so the water can slop up, however the sideways thrust will come from the weight.)

Most older Grey Water tanks are concrete: tend to be round in fact (in the USA).

Sorry to be boring: I have now been researching this for over five years!

http://www.greenstreet.org.uk/index.php?ct=1&filters=f16

http://www.biosystemssa.co.za/greywater.htm

http://www.eng.warwick.ac.uk/DTU/pubs/rn/rwh/cs04/cs4.html

 

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Hi Gluestick

Not boring at all, no apology necessary.

I do realise that reinforced concrete walls are somewhat thicker than plastic. My query re weight was purely as to the weight of this volume of water, ie not inculding the plastic or the concrete. I imagine that there are engineers out there who can calculate the gross weight, which i imagine will have to be worked out in order to spec the amount of steel and concrete required. The point re the plastic, and I would go the pool type liner route, is if there is subsidence of any sort the pool liner will " go with the flow" whereas if there is a void created beneath the concrete shell the structure might well break. Swimmimng pools do crack and break because of subsidence, usually because the spec beneath the concrete floor is insufficient.

 A concrete structure is a whole lot more work than a reinforced plastic sheet and having constructed a 10x 5 metre concrete pool know how much work is involved, check out the swimmimg pool on our site    www.maspomona.com

Rgds

Wilko

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Lovely refurb of your mas, Wilko and nice area. Nice pool, too.

Trouble with plastic is it tends to work harden. If the sub-soil shifts, then whilst the plastic tank might accommodate a slight deformation, over time it is more likely to crack, I feel.

There are tanks around designed for burying and specifically for Grey Water systems , but they are very expensive.

Interesting story. back in the late 70s I was involved with a US project to build system houses for the Third World. (The City trading house of which I was a director bought a major interest in the US outfit in Miami). The first major development was for the government in San Juan, Puerto Rico.

The houses were designed on the old engineering principle of a Roman Arch and made on poly-coated deformable, mild steel fabricated moulds. Using only chicken wire (well, nearly!) and with the concrete pressure pumped into the mould (The concrete pumps used then was the same as that used to cast deep foundations for US nuclear power stations!), the resulting houses were resistant to force 7 on the Richter scale; enjoyed a UL life expectancy of 70+ years and could also resist most hurricanes in the West Indies and Caribbean. And only cost peanuts to cast and finish.

All provided Chris reinforces the sides and bottoms adequately with steel mesh, I can't see that the relatively small size will suffer many problems. Chris I'm sure will know already if his terrain suffers from any adverse ground problems.

 

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I would suggest lining the excavation with Jablite or cellotex...clean cast with a compression medium to allow for expansion and contraction in the ground, you may also want to consider a geotextile to prevent tree root ingress.

Cast floor first leaving starter bars to wire your vertical fabric to once floor has gone off shutter walls ( extensive cross bracing required) introduce some cement slurry as a tack coat prior to your pour.

It may be possible to use waterproof concrete.

in which case cast floor as suggested ( Normal phosphate resistant concrete)  and allow to go off cast walls in waterproof concrete, strike and remove shutters , screed base with 75 mm waterproof concrete. Should be extremely solid.

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Again, great info Bigmac...thanks. I've been looking everywhere locally for a waterproofing additive for cement but to no avail at the moment.

My neighbour says I should use a vibrator to compact the concrete and get the air bubbles out...I thought it a little strange but he's done loads of concreting in the past so I guess he knows better.

Been shopping around and was thinking this might do the trick, I'm a little worried about the cost of batteries tho.

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