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Poele Aggravation


thunderhorse
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Bought a small woodburning poele (cyclindrical type GD) to put in the kitchen. There is no existing chimney, and I wanted the chimney pipes (97 mm black-enamelled) to remain exposed as they throw off a lot of heat.

The supplier of the pipes said that no fire cement was required for joining. Others have said the same. But, distillate from the wood burning process leaks out the joints and makes a mess. So I cemented the joints. A friend, a plumber, learned from my mistake and cemented his from the start.

No joy (for either of us), the distillate (brown liquid like the inside of a soggy ash-tray!) still drips from the pipe joints, and I'm getting fed up with the mess.

How best to resolve it? The chimney pipes go up through an unconverted loft, so cool very rapidly (hence I believe the distillate). They also cake up inside and require frequent banging of pipes to dislodge the crusty stuff, plus applications of the granules to burn it away.

I can't line the pipe, neither can I sleeve with bigger dia. stuff. Or can I? How would I then bang to dislodge the crust inside? I'd love to keep clean shiny black pipe exposed, and don't want the expense of building a chimney inside the kitchen.

Anybody else got/had the problem. How do I stop the horrible mess from the pipe joints? Any advice welcomed.

The wood is well seasoned and dry.

Many thanks.

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We did have this problem and the messy brown gunge caused some damage to the decor.  I was surprised when my builder told me the problem was not condensation running back, but rainwater entering the chimney at the top and mixing with soot and other goo on the way down. 

I didn't really believe him but the stack needed repointing anyway and I asked him to put a really effective cap on it at the same time.  He put a big flat slab over the top of the whole thing (the traditional style around here) so that smoke emerges from holes on all sides and the two woodburner flues inside are protected from rain.

You may share my initial scepticism, but it worked.  No further problems even when running the woodburners on very damped down settings (which was always when it happened before).

Patrick 

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The tar like substance is caused by either the gases cooling down and then condensation  forms .

Or if the fire is running shut down to much this makes it do the same.

 

You could also have the pipes fixed so that the male end coming down over the female end ie up the wrong way.

How far out of the roof dose the pipe sick out?

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The pipe is near the eaves - about three feet in on the level, and

protruding above the tiles precisely one metre. It doesn't protrude

above the ridge. The male goes into the female, with the male at the top. I figured turning the whole lot over: that would stop the tar running out, AND, I don't think smoke would come out as the lid for the stove is only held down by its own weight, and that doesn't vent.

But then turning the whole lot over wouldn't allow the female elbow at the bottom to fit over the back of the stove. No, the pipes are the correct way up, dammit.

I know that the tar is caused by cooling, but I can't have the stove roaring away all the time. Short of lagging the pipes in the loft... It all seems such a lot of pants. I just want to stop the tar leaking out of the joints.

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I have two godins One goes over 6 meters up the inside of our barn that forms one half of are home,150mm single skin pipe. When it gets To 750mm from where it goes through the roof I have put 180mm pipe over the 150mm pipe and filled it with Rockwool  and extended that up through  the roof and 750mm on the out side, but then this comes out just before the ridge and have no tar what so ever.

But in ore other barn the pipe only goes up 4 meters to the roof and then as with the other godin 750mm before I have added 180mm pipe and filled this with Rockwool this then has to get past the other barn roof witch is 1.5 m higher and then because it comes out at the bottom of the roof on the northern side I have gone up 2.5 m ,But the last meter dose not have the additional 180mm pipe and insulation .and when cold and wet at the same time I do some times get the tar smell  first thing in the morning where the godin has been shut right down for the night .

But when I get my butt back on the roof I will fit the additional pipe with insulation and this should stop it.

 

You would be better to have a T  peace at the back of the godin and not a 90 bend .   

 

Have a look at this site ity may help .

 

http://www.backwoodsman-stoves.co.uk/MAINMENUS/Chimmenu.html

 

 

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"The pipe is near the eaves - about three feet in on the level, and

protruding above the tiles precisely one metre. It doesn't protrude

above the ridge. The male goes into the female, with the male at the

top. I figured turning the whole lot over: that would stop the tar

running out, AND, I don't think smoke would come out as the lid for the

stove is only held down by its own weight, and that doesn't vent.

But

then turning the whole lot over wouldn't allow the female elbow at the

bottom to fit over the back of the stove. No, the pipes are the correct

way up, dammit.

I know that the tar is caused by cooling, but I

can't have the stove roaring away all the time. Short of lagging the

pipes in the loft... It all seems such a lot of pants. I just want to

stop the tar leaking out of the joints.


Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads."

Your flue pipes are upside down - full stop.

If you cannot connect the flue at the back of the stove with the flue

the right way up then your supplier has provided the wrong fitting.

The tar is nothing to do with rain - it is caused by the fumes, etc,

from the stove condensing in the cold flue pipe and running back out as

a tarry deposit.

The best solution is to fit double-skin insulated flue pipes from

Fumistar or Laheyra which clamp together and will keep the fumes hot to

the top of the flue.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

www.charnwood.com

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I don’t know if it applies to wood burner flues but for gas

boiler flues the flue outlet should be clear above the ridge by a certain

distance (cannot remember what the distance was but 46 cm rings a bell and is

probably wrong – others will know better). 

Alternatively (or maybe additionally) the top of the flue should be

clear of everything or an 8m radius (? Or diam ?) horizontally.

Sorry I’m unsure of the details but I’m not an expert.  Just know a little I’ve picked-up when being

told the changes I need to sort out myself.

Ian

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Many thanks for all the input so far. Come the spring the whole lot is coming out - shouldn't take long - and I'll start again.

With single pipe construction, and apparently as they are upside-down [:$], should fire cement be used for the joints anyway? Friends haven't, and they don't have a problem, but, their joints are the same way up as mine... [:(]

Just to confirm, the female is at the bottom of each perpendicular piece and sits over the male. The male is inside.

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[quote user="dinks"]...I have put 180mm pipe over the 150mm pipe and filled it with Rockwool  and extended that up through  the roof and 750mm on the out side, but then this comes out just before the ridge and have no tar what so ever ....

 

You would be better to have a T  peace at the back of the godin and not a 90 bend ... [/quote]

What have you done with the pipe joints? I take it the rockwool doesn't act like a sponge?

Yes, with that wonderful gift of hindsight, a T-piece would have been better. [:D]

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Hello,

Lots of confusion here over male and female / right way  and condensation etc.

Bobc is right here.

First all joints should be fully sealed, if they are not you have an unsafe installation and are at risk as a result.

Fire cement can be relatively unworkable and I would recommend Fortafix Ceramix which is easier applied and has better tack. www.fluesystems.com

You should definitely not have an elbow as a final connection to the rear of any woodburning appliance.

Similarly there are strict regulations on ridge clearances and clearances to combustibles (eg floor and roof voids) http://www.lanive.fr/reglementation.htm

Do not use "rockwool" loft insulation as an insulation for heating appliances, you will invalidate your insurance, use vermiculite or similar (Micafil or similar dedicated chimney insulation)

All flue pipes should be installed so any condensing material falls down inside the pipe ( the common mistake is to install pipes upside down in the belief that the smoke will then go up the chimney and not leak out of the joints)

Please have your installation checked by a registered plumber it is not up to regulations.

It is better to be safe than sorry!

 

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[quote user="the build doctor"]... All flue pipes should be installed so any condensing material falls

down inside the pipe ( the common mistake is to install pipes upside

down in the belief that the smoke will then go up the chimney and not

leak out of the joints)...[/quote]

If this is the operative bit, then I have indeed put the blighters in upside down...[:$] It seemed logical at the time.

I'll check out the sites you recommended.

Many thanks all. A workable installation is in sight! [:D]

PS - online chat with fluesystems.com was invaluable.

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"Hello,

Lots of confusion here over male and female / right way  and condensation etc.

Bobc is right here.

First all joints should be fully sealed, if they are not you have an unsafe installation and are at risk as a result.

Fire cement can be relatively unworkable and I would recommend Fortafix

Ceramix which is easier applied and has better tack. www.fluesystems.com

You should definitely not have an elbow as a final connection to the rear of any woodburning appliance.

Similarly there are strict regulations on ridge clearances and

clearances to combustibles (eg floor and roof voids)

http://www.lanive.fr/reglementation.htm

Do not use "rockwool" loft insulation as an insulation for heating

appliances, you will invalidate your insurance, use vermiculite or

similar (Micafil or similar dedicated chimney insulation)

All flue pipes should be installed so any condensing material falls

down inside the pipe ( the common mistake is to install pipes upside

down in the belief that the smoke will then go up the chimney and not

leak out of the joints)

Please have your installation checked by a registered plumber it is not up to regulations.

It is better to be safe than sorry!"

Generally good advice.

"You should definitely not have an elbow as a final connection to the rear of any woodburning appliance."

Not sure what you mean by an elbow.

Most decent stove manufacturers supply a right-angle adaptor to enable you you to connect the flue to the rear of the stove.

For the stoves that we sell:

http://www.charnwood.com/features-flue-adaptor.asp

This provides a 90 degree adaptor which still enables the flue to be easily swept from within the stove.

For a couple of examples of stoves that we have installed with this fitting:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux/charninstall.htm

The first and last installations use the 90 degree adaptor and both

stoves work perfectly. The first only has a total flue height of 5

metres but is still efficient.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

www.charnwood.com

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My poele is a small GD that takes 97 mm pipes. Without taking the lids off, it can only be rodded from the outside: the flue brush certainly can't get round the 90 deg. angle I put in, and a flange inside stops it anyway. Therefore I'll be looking for a 97mm T-piece with a tampon in the bottom. That way I can rod vertically straight up the flue.

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  • 1 month later...

I've been reading this thread with great interest as I have been having similar problems.

I installed a poele in my small sitting room where there is no chimney. I took the flu out through the wall and up the ouitside of the gable end to a height of 1.2 mtrs above the apex and added a china hat too. Draw is fine and the fire in general works well except

CONDENSATION AND THE DRIPS.

Looking at this thread I have learned that the flu needs to be inside which it now is. I have directed it at an upward angular route - using a 45degree elbow into the chimney breast in the kitchen approx 1.5 mtrs away. Temporarily I have not connected the rest of the flu to this until I can verify that this new route and method will work. I have a T piece coming off the poele with a lower cap end to allow cleaning access. What I also discovered is that the T Piece has a male fitting on the top end and as a result I have all of my pipes sections upside down. Hence the escaping drips.

I rang a very helpful guy in England, who I found on the web, and he explained the following:

  • ALL joints must be sealed for saftey and also to prevent the intake of air which will create GUESS WHAT - condensation (most importantly he stressed the connecion to the fire as the key joint)

  • The female joint must be uppermost on the flu sections to prevent condensation drips

  • That all fires will have some degree of condensation

  • The condensation is not a problem if the flu is installed the right way up and that the fire system will deal with the moisture its own way.

I was concerned about what actually happened to this condensation - he assured me that it was normal and not to worry unless it was escaping before being dealt with by the flu and fire.

My temporary set up did not have the T Piece sealed to the fire and the condensation was still evident although nowhere near as bad as the time the flu was outside. The guy in England's first question when I explained this was to enquire if I had sealed the joints and most importantly the one fromt the fire to the T Piece. As I havent he was certain this was my problem. Hopefully this will be sorted tomorrow when I redo the whole thing once again.

So in essence - much sound advice on this thread and good luck to all.

Paul

 

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Although I used a 90deg elbow at the back of the poele - with a male and female fitting - I've now found that I could in fact have obtained quite readily a 90deg bend with a double female fitting!

As it is, I've now ordered a T-piece (double female) plus tampon, so come the warmer weather it can all come out and I can turn the pipes the correct way up. Now I just need suitable lagging for the two metres running through the grenier.

Thanks all. We live and learn!

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  • 1 year later...
I wondered thunderhorse if you are OK now having turned the flue around? Ours is the other way round, i.e. the female/socket pointing down towards the floor and we have a huge tar problem all the way down the outside of our flue. Could this also be because our outside flue (on the roof) is not insulated?
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"No joy (for either of us), the distillate (brown liquid like the inside

of a soggy ash-tray!) still drips from the pipe joints, and I'm getting

fed up with the mess."

"The wood is well seasoned and dry."

the wood should have been cut at least 3 years ago otherwise it will certainly produce plenty of the tarry liquid regardless of how your pipes are fitted!

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