Beware! Ask questions and make sure you see things working!

[RDC3]

Myself and my partner moved to Burgundy last year, buying a property through an agency in Autun (if you want their name either PM or Email me).

The house had been empty for six months according to the agents, and was sold to us 'in good state' with central heating.

On the date of signing, I asked the agent if I could check the house over, as I'd read that this was advisable. However, he told me no, as there wasn't time.

On entering the notaire's office, I was told that the agents had misquoted my fees by 750E. I had the letter they'd sent me with the fees written down, but the agent, who was beside me, just shrugged and asked me if I had a cheque book! I was told that unless I could produce this there and then, I couldn't have my keys. Well, it isn't really the sort of cash you have stashed in your back pocket is it?!

On arrival at our house, we soon discovered that all of the water pipes had been cut in order to bleed the radiator. Several days plumbling got it fixed, but it took my neighbour to come and tell me that the central heating boiler was 'finished'. This turned out to be very true. The house, which had actually been empty for two years, not six months, hadn't so much as got hot water, let alone heating. I took this up with the agent, but they informed me that I should have asked to see it working on the day of signing!!!! All I received was a quote for 1800 euros to send a plumber to get it into the state they advertised it in!

Most recently, I have now received a bill from my neighbours, informing me that, as part of the 'commune' (my house is behind some others and I have to walk through a corridor to reach it) I am liable for a share of their building insurance - I don't even live in that building! My house is entirely detached! Funnily enough, none of this was mentioned by the agent when I bought it.

So my advice is - beware! Ask to see everything working, visit the house on the day of signing, and ask questions about your liabilities.

RDC3

[AnOther]

Sorry to sound blunt, new poster and all that, but unless I've misunderstood it sounds as if you hadn't even visited the house before you bought it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this is so then thanks for the warning but I hope you're not looking for any sympathy [:-))]

[suein56]

[quote user="RDC3"]

So my advice is - beware! Ask to see everything working, visit the house on the day of signing, and ask questions about your liabilities.

RDC3 [/quote]

Thank you for sharing your predicament and giving such useful advice. I think it is a sorry way to have acquired such knowledge.

Perhaps that was the bad and, to paraphrase someone else ' things can now only get better'.

Sue

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Guess we were lucky. We bought our house site unseen. Part of the adventure. Plus it would have cost an extra 5000 euros at least to have seen it before settlement anyway.

Turned out to be better than the real estate agent had described too. Still needed a lot of work doing to it though, but we knew that.

[tracteurtom]

Quick, there's english in town looking at houses, show 'em that pile of rocks over there, tell 'em its a bargain with lots of interest (oh and dont forget to double the price)   Some fool will buy it !!!  [:D]

[Anglo-Frenchman]

As a resident building surveyor, I probably have a biased opinion nonetheless I would have presumed that common sense would prevail and even a cursory inspection of the property by the lay person would have probably prevented this kind of problem.

[RDC3]

Erm, actually yes. We did see the house. I'm not sure what made you think we didn't, and why it required such a curt reply.

Thank you for your 'concern', but I was merely offering advice to anyone who may find themselves in our predicament. It sounds to me like sympathy would not be one of your areas of speciality anyway. Sorry if I misunderstood....

 

[AnOther]

Well you certainly wouldn't have been the first to buy unseen as witnessed by LyndaandRichards post and if I misunderstood that aspect then I apologise.

In the sense that your post was advice then yes it certainly does make a very valid point which is to do your homework and avoid being led like lambs to the slaughter.

Others have said likewise but perhaps more diplomatically....!

Whatever you might think I do "do" sympathy but I'm afraid in this instance I have to stick with my stance, sorry, nevertheless I do wish you the best of luck in sorting out your remaining problems [:)]

[Russethouse]

RDC3 - don't feel too bad, virtually the same thing happened to us 20 years ago when we bought this house (in the UK). We bought the house the day it went on the market, the seller, a middle aged batchelor went to the 'local' to celebrate and dropped dead on the doorstep.

There followed months of waiting while we sold our house and waited for probate, although the house was empty we were not allowed in even to measure for curtains etc. The house was inherited by the brother of the deceased who hadn't seen him for about 15 years, the day we moved in he told us that they had in fact been interested in letting their son live there and had been stringing us along while the son tried to get a local job, it didn't work out and we got the house almost by default. The new vendors knew I had two children under 5 but thought it was OK to leave the house with odd bits of furniture they hadn't wanted (some bulky), filthy and with 'Courtier stove' which supplied the heating and hot water, broken. It was November, so we lit the coal fire, put up the fireguard and put my FIL in there with the children while my mother and I boiled kettles to clean the house, the kitchen took 2 days.........

Oddly, I didn't rush to forward their post. [:(]

When our present neighbours moved in they very nearly got a loft full of rubbish (but noticed in time and made the people moving out shift it) and they did get a bucket of cat s*it in the middle of the garden, they too had two young children and a babe in arms !

[Bob T]

I too have a warning for others. I bought my house on 2004 and it had been empty for a couple of years at the time. I bought through a French estate agent and visited the house 3 times with my eyes wide open. I did not have a survey and was given the keys after the final signing.

The house was exactly as expected with the bonus of all the grass having been cut and the house cleaned. The estate agent had arranged for the phone and internet and changed all the bills over into my name at no charge. He has since become a very good friend.

I would suspect that my experience is the more common one compared to the original post.

I do have sympathy for you, but your problems are probably one in a thousand, and they are the ones that get the publicity, thereby making every potential buyer be afraid of the system in France.

[Owens88]

Hmm.

 

We bought in france and inherited a jumble sale full of clothes and furniture. We were so shocked we rang the previous oners and were told something to eth effect of 'sorry. anything you want keep, anyhting you don't dump'

 

THEN followed by phone calls (to a brit mobile costing us money). 'Oh Mr. so and so's jacket is nearly new. Could we save that for him' (and yes I fancied it). Then 'Oh there is a futon we borrowed from Mmme... she will collect it next week' (and it was in a right sorry state - beneath what would go to my local jumble sale.) - grossly irritating and shameful.

#

BUT especially beware the estate agent. The property was described as having central heating. The agent proudly showed my missus the radiators and alluded to some form of under-floor system as well. He avoided showing her the cave with the boiler in bits. The boiler had NEVER worked for the vendors, they eventually admitted that they had been sold a pup by an estate agent and felt they could do the same. Luckily we caught that before completion (but not the missing oven or.. or..)

At least in Britain I could have 'had' the agent under the property misdescriptions act.

 

p.s. the vendors were not French they were Scots living in France.

 

 

 

[Alan Zoff]

I sympathise. It's easy to be wise after the event. You should have done this? Why didn't you insist on that? Why did you sign, etc.

But I wonder how many people would stand up to an agent and a notaire in a foreign country on the day of signing. If you refuse, you face possible legal action for breach of contract in a jurisdiction with which everyone but you is familiar. Without ownership of the property, you perhaps have nowhere to stay that night. So do you book into a hotel, hoping it will be resolved quickly? Or travel back home and arrange another visit. All extra hassle and expense.

It does not help to avoid this situation when people posting on this Forum who have been fortunate enough to buy without problems suggest that there is nothing to worry about - you can trust the local agents and notaires. Obtaining third party advice seems to be frowned upon by some. My advice would be treat it the same as a purchase in your own country but with more caution to allow for the lack of familiarity with the local law and the fact that you are the "outsider". Get things checked out thoroughly before signing the initial contract, get everything in writing, involve someone you trust (especially at final signing) who understands the process - and speaks the language - and arrange timings so that proper inspections can be made and you are not under pressure to sign quickly.

 

[cooperlola]

I agree Alan.  This seems to me to be a "no brainer" - as they say.  Your home is the biggest investment you ever make.  The idea that you would buy something that expensive on a whim seems remarkable to me!  Would you buy an old car without looking under the bonnet first?  I doubt it... and I certainly hope not!

[Monika]

All these situations pale into insignificance, we had the ultimate nightmare scenario: we have bought 14 houses in England over 34 years, everytime we asked all the right questions, did all the right things and the 15th time we bought an apartment in a block of flats on top of a cliff it happened, exactly 1 year later, I was just in Switzerland, my husband phoned me: "Do you want the good or the bad news? The good news is, our view is even better than before, the bad news is, I am phoning from the beach!" Well it was not quite as bad as that, but what he was referring to was a huge landslide which had taken away part of our garden and the coastal path, the value of the apartments made a huge nose dive and I can't think of anything worse to happen, this is nature and not much can be done against that. Anything else going wrong can be dealt with. However the good news is, seven years later, the flats are selling again and more or less at the value they should be!

[Framboise]

I quite agree that not all immobiliers or notaires are utterly trustworthy, let alone the sellers, but we were almost caught out by a rogue immo when we went out to France on our house hunting expedition eighteen months ago.  Fortunately we had a French lady working as our agent  which at the time seemed rather an extravagance, yet she proved her worth when she rescued us from this despicable shyster who was trying to sell us a hovel disguised as a renovation project from a number of demolition sites he had on his books.   From what we heard from other folk we got to know locally, quite a few of them had been unlucky enough to get caught by this particular immo. who also touts himself as a professional builder / electrician / mr. wonderful.

We had travelled out to view a particular house we had seen on the internet and frankly I wanted that place so much that it would have been a foregone conclusion for us to leave as the Owners of it, however the night before we were due to leave the vendor rang to say that it was sold that day but they knew there were immos in the area we were going so why not still make the trip?   First place the three of us pitched up in, there he was.  All permed hair and perma-tan, flash suit and every inch the estate agent - say no more!

This man was dutch apparently and married to a german woman who terrified all who crossed her path, but what she & hubby did not bank on was that the lady with us understood every single word that they said about us when we returned from a viewing trip to the bomb-sites they had in mind for us.  Needless to say that our agent took a very dim view of it, refusing to say what they actually said but ripping into them influent German with a few home truths, then after that she marched us back out of the shop stating that they were a bunch of "french expletives!!!"

After a coffee we realised there was a small anonymous immo across the Square that did not boast about its "international links" and stuff, there inside was a charming lady who indeed had some lovely properties on her books - and these had roofs as well as walls without the water running down them!   Later that day we were taken to see several properties, amongst which we found our lovely house and I am pleased to say that the immo lady has become a good friend of ours and been on hand to help in all sorts of crises during the renovation of our house.    We gained a good friend through that despicable crook though.

I would say that unless you are fluent in French and have an idea as to how the purchasing of property works out there, please find a trusworthy agent to work on your behalf and then you are far less likely to fall prey to the likes of the Dodgy Dutchman and his ilk. 

A word of warning though - we heard this agency had been run out of town for their dodgy dealings, and not for the first time either. They have apparently left a trail of bad debt and broken hearts behind them, so watch out....................he is out there somewhere.

[oliveau]

[quote user="RDC3"]

So my advice is - beware! Ask to see everything working, visit the house on the day of signing, and ask questions about your liabilities.

RDC3

[/quote]

I think I made this point in my post a few weeks ago titled 'Professional Advice'. I can't think why people buy houses in France without the benefit of a French speaking solicitor experienced in French property conveyance! There's the added burden of having to do everything in French.

It's a major investment, yet there are so many tales of woe in this forum from people who frankly should have known better.

It may be France, but the Latin adage applies just as much here as it does anywhere - CAVEAT EMPTOR.

I now my reponse is blunt, but there's no point in beating about the bush.

Peter

[Chancer]

And sometimes, as in my case taking a big and on reflection foolish risk pays off big-time.

I had a friend living in this area and in the past had asked him to line up a couple of properties for me to view, due to my then poor French and his lack of English they weren't what I wanted (indeed did I really know what I was looking for until I found it?) and he felt that I had wasted his time. On parting he said "work out exactly what you want and I will help you but not before" and that is how we left it.

On my next (social not househunting) visit I was just about to leave for the ferry when he said "I have got the keys to a property to look at for my friend Sylvie, it's on your way, come with me and you can depart from there. I didn't know then that Sylvie had already refused it as too much work and he was taking me there to guage my reaction. The property was a liquidation sale and was not yet on the market but nonetheless he had the keys.

When I saw the beautiful but abandoned hotel/bar/restaurant and he told me the price was that of a good quality second hand car and what a shame that Sylvie didn't want it I jumped in with both feet. I should also explain that in just 2 weeks time I was due to leave for a 2 year round the world backpacking trip having already settled my affairs in England, my intention was to try my luck in France at the end of the trip, but luck found me in the form of the house.

After warning me that there could be no mucking about and changing of my mind (the notaire was a good friend of his) we went straight to the notaires office, who in turn negotiated with the liquidator of the property. Even though I had offered the asking price the liquidator did not want to accept it as it was in fact the guide price for a sealed bid auction, he was finally convinced to accept my offer when we explained my travelling situation and said it would have to be accepted or withdrawn there and then.

I was then left with only 2 weeks to conclude the sale with a non English speaking notaire and my non-English speaking friend who now had power of attorney and a whole bunch of my money!

When I left on my travels, I had already paid the deposit and had left the balance with my friend, he could probably have bought the house for himself and I would have been none the wiser!

I am delighted to say 3 years later that it was a risk worth taking and that I hadn't appreciated just how cheap the place was, it was in fact far below the then market value (which has since trebled) due to the French system where the liquidator is only required to recover enough money to discharge the creditors, not to also get a fair market price.

[Will]

The original post gave good advice, if anything is important then do check and double check. Most of the time agents want to be honest, but you wouldn't believe the porkies that sellers (French even more so than English) tell, and not all of these facts can be checked easily. So there is invariably a clause that nothing can be guaranteed. One might think that notaires would pick up some of the points before the sale is completed, but their searches are somewhat more cursory than English buyers are used to. France is one of those countries where 'caveat emptor' definitely applies. Buyers are expected to take some responsibility themselves for their actions rather than rely on the compensation culture.

The vast majority of sales go smoothly, with honest sellers and agents, and competent notaires, so even the most naive and trusting of buyers are OK. But this cannot always be the case, and it is the horror stories that get repeated.

[Anglo-Frenchman]

As a professional surveyor working in France I have come across the good, the bad and the definateyl ugly! There are occasions that I look at a building and wonder what on earth the client is thinking but that is a matter of personal taste. As previously stated by many respondents, more often than not there are no serious issues and sales go thorugh without any hitches perhaps leaving buyers wondering if they really needed a survey. On the other hand there are times when the money has been well spent, sometimes less than half of one % of the purchase price and saved the buyer from a host of expesive problems they knew nothing about.

I carred out a survey at the begining of this year on a property in the Deux-Sèvres of which the buyer had been advised by the agent that amongst other things the roof was in 'tip-top' condition. My inspection followed a night of torrential rain (my faviourite conditions) and revealed that the roof was about as far from tip-tip as one could get - on the contrary it leaked like a bucket and in fact when I opened the front door a tidle-wave of water met me on the threshold! 

The sale did not go through as the client baulked at the €30k needed to retile and repair the roof and in due course I received a very irrate call frrom the French agent telling me that he would never again refer a cilent to me. I told him I was not paid to be popular and that he should be better accquinted with what he was selling.

For my part I would not spend €50k or more on a race horse without expert advice as I know nothing on the subject.      

[Will]

A point that a lot of people miss is that a sensible, honest agent wants the buyer to be happy with the purchase so will not hestitate to recommend a survey, and suggest an impartial surveyor, in cases of doubt (unlike the example above).

It is still true that the majority of houses in France bought by the British are clearly in need of attention, buyers know that the roof, windows, etc will need replacing, and a heating system to be installed, so they do not regard an initial survey as a priority.

However with the emphasis shifting towards properly habitable houses, many of which may have undergone recent work of possibly doubtful standard, the role of the surveyor gains more importance.

[Anglo-Frenchman]

[quote user="Will"]

(unlike the example above).

[/quote]

Not sure I follow Will?

[Will]

[quote user="Anglo-Frenchman"]

Not sure I follow Will?

[/quote]

"I received a very irrate call frrom the French agent telling me that he would never again refer a cilent to me"

You would not have got that from any of the good agents I was thinking of - though I could also name a few French ones who would get irate at the potential loss of a sale.

[Anglo-Frenchman]

Yes, I agree entirely.

[Athene]

It seems to be the case too that Brits buying houses in need of renovation think that because they have not paid much for the house itself the renovation will be at a price lower than UK price! This is just not the case! Artisans' work is not cheap and if for instance a new roof is required then it would be wise to call in a local builder to give  a price that could be added onto the house price before a decision is made as to whether it is feasible to continue with the purchase. Our stone mason friend says he is fed up with Brits calling him out for 'devis' and then trying to beat him down on the price of the work. He says he knows of many cases where Brits have sold small houses in the UK and bought huge ruins in France and then proceeded to live their lives in a caravan on the land as they just cannot afford the renovation costs!

Again it is a case of buyer beware!

[Babbles]

To the OP, have you tried going back to the Notaire, when the final act (which you would have recieved after the signing, I've heard of some people not getting it for over a year, look at what was stated about the heating) was signed the vendor will probably have signed to say the heating was in working order which clearly it was not, we had a different issue that came to light after the signing but went back to the Notaire with the vendor, immo and immo's boss and did recieve financial settlement. It is certainly worth a try without having to go to massive legal expense. Bon chance.